Jimmy Deenihan (Kerry North, Fine Gael)

I compliment Deputy Perry on his interesting and well researched contribution. It was Deputy Perry who recognised the gap in the original legislative proposals, thus rendering an important service to many elderly people. He will forever be remembered for that.

The Minister of State, Deputy Hoctor, has responsibility for issues affecting older people and is therefore well aware of the importance of this issue. The recent census showed that more than 460,000 people in the State are over 65 years of age. The demographics indicate that by 2036, more than 1 million people will be in this age category. This is a major challenge for this country. Irrespective of the merits of the Bill, this will come down to economics. We are looking very seriously at the economic position of the country and the affordability of all services. We will shortly have a debate on the levy on public service pensions. Care of the elderly and the affordability of nursing homes is important. These matters should not go unnoticed in the current debate.

The reason debate on this Bill has gone on for so long is that there are so many people interested in it. They may have aged relatives or parents. Furthermore, the age profile of the Members of this House is quite high. People are looking to their future. Since I came into politics 26 years ago, the age profile has increased considerably. It changed somewhat after the last election but it reflects the age profile of the country. This is a major challenge facing the country.

The cost of the implementation of this legislation has not been fully quantified. With the percentages that exist it should be possible to quantify what it would cost after this change. The introduction of a new income assessment system will help. There is a formula for how this would be composed but the figure of 20% gives rise to questioning of where that will come from. There is also concern that there will be a queue for qualification. This will change the system as it is at present. People are in nursing homes for social and other reasons and not for clinical reasons but, following this Bill, there will be common assessment of clinical needs throughout the country. This could rule out some people who are in nursing homes at this moment. There will also be a common means assessment and some standardisation of means assessment across the country, which is good.

Deputy Perry and other speakers have made the point that we should start from the premise that the best place for an aging person is in his or her home. We should try to reintroduce a culture whereby old people are encouraged to stay for as long as they can in their homes, where they are most comfortable and feel most secure. It is proven that if they are looked after properly, preferably by family members, they live longer. We all have personal experience of that. In some cases there is a rush to encourage older people to go to nursing homes and we must change that attitude in this country. It may be convenient for some but generally speaking people should be encouraged to stay at home.

Along with Deputy Perry, I agree with the home care packages, which are working quite well. There are not enough of them — there are 460 in County Kerry. No new home care package was allocated for the past six to nine months. They are effective if they are properly resourced. Another issue is the number of hours in home help services. This is an effective service because it provides an incentive for people to stay at home if they get necessary services such as cleaning and a hot meal every day, which is essential for older people. Also, it is a major source of rural employment. Large numbers of people are involved and it is a major service industry in itself. It is one of the most effective instruments that I have seen in rural Ireland, where local people — mostly female — are employed and encouraged to work and remain in their communities. It is an important part of supplementary income for families and the people availing of the service know the people who provide it if their families cannot provide the service. To reduce home help hours substantially is a retrograde step and it will force people to consider going into nursing homes in future. It is not economic for people to take on only a few hours of home help rather than the greater number of hours that were available before. This gave them a greater income from the service.

No doubt others have raised the following issues. There is concern about the assessment of means. Section 10 sets out the terms of the financial assessment. Under the terms of the Bill, the HSE is entitled to seek an assessment of means that will be conducted by a suitable person of the choosing of the HSE. If the HSE wishes to establish the market value of any item it is not bound by any valuation accompanying an application for State support. It is empowered to select a suitable person to conduct the valuation according to section 10(6).

A number of issues arise in respect of the financial assessment of means. It is not clear what is meant by a suitable person, nor who will conduct the assessment of means. Will it be a community welfare officer? This must be clarified. The Minister must clarify if the means test will be carried out by the HSE, State officials or an independent third party. If the discrepancy is found between the market value of an asset established by the HSE and the valuation submitted with an application for support, the HSE is not bound by this valuation. If there is considerable disparity on the values identified, this could have a significant implication for the applicant or the State. Under the current legislation there is no opportunity for the courts to find agreement on the issue. It is important that suitable provisions are agreed to deal with this eventuality.

Under section 10(4) it is not clear who is considered a suitable person or what is meant by "in such manner and by such means as it thinks appropriate". An independent third party should be assigned responsibility to determine the estimated market value of an item. The Minister of State should clarify who pays the valuation referred to in section 10(5) and whether this cost is incorporated into the repayment of ancillary State support. Section 10(7) states that any information or records requested as part of the assessment of means must be provided within 28 days from the date of the request, unless otherwise specified by the HSE. If information requested by the HSE is not provided within 28 days of the date of the request, the HSE may refuse to consider the application. I see difficulties with this because 28 days is a short period, especially for older people who, if living on their own, may not be able to access the information requested. If people seek additional time it should be granted to them. This clause should be clarified further. In some cases applicants may have to request documentation from local authorities and Government bodies and it may take longer than four weeks to obtain it. It is important that this requirement is reconsidered so that applicants are given reasonable time to collect necessary documentation.

Section 29(7) states that a person may not request a financial review unless 12 months have elapsed since the most recent financial assessment and that this must be, to the satisfaction of the HSE, a material change in the financial circumstances of the person.

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