Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)

I estimate the saving at €20 million, although Deputy Reilly has said it will be €16 million. In her introductory remarks, the Minister did not state how much she estimates this measure will save. When the Minister, Deputy Martin, introduced this political brainwave in the first instance, a couple of days before that year's budget, it was a bit of a disaster. The Comptroller and Auditor General subsequently studied this issue and referred it to the Committee of Public Accounts. If I recall, the Government estimated at the time that it would cost €12 million or €13 million, but it cost over €70 million in the first year. The full-year cost at the time was approximately €115 million. The Accounting Officer responsible for it, the then Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children, explained that the Civil Service had been rushed into estimating the cost of the measure a couple of days before the budget. It did not have time to do a proper calculation. This system has a fairly ragged history, but we are where we are. The Minister would have been as well off to abandon it completely when she had to pull it back to such an extent under pressure from the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party. There are no great savings now and there is still considerable grief around. However, we are where we are and we have an obligation to try to improve the situation.

Those people who have medical cards already and whose income exceeds the new limits will get notification from the HSE and will be requested to own up if their income is in excess of the means test limit. The Minister's colleagues in Fianna Fáil are effectively tacitly advising the elderly to lie. I have heard them on radio saying, "You'll get the letter. Ignore it and you'll hold on to your card. Don't say anything. That's fine". However, the Minister has said that in many cases the Paymaster General would have an account. I heard her suggest in a radio interview that there would be cross-checking on pension income through the Office of the Paymaster General. She has been silent on the matter today. I wonder what the situation now is. Is there a tacit agreement in Government that when people get notice they will lose their medical cards if they are over the new means test limit, they should ignore the letter or is the Minister saying there will be cross-checking? If there is cross-checking and if later in the year people are found to have ignored the request to state their income, what measures will be taken? Are there penalties attached?

The Minister has reduced the means test provisions considerably. I do not know of any institution where a person can earn 5% on money on deposit. Even a month ago when interest rates were high, a person would not get 5% when the 23% or 24% DIRT is deducted. At present with interest rates dropping rapidly, to impute 5% to savings is not realisable and is not real income. The Minister is deliberately inflating the figures. I know there is a discount of €36,000 and €72,000.

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