Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)

I will try to be as brief as possible. The Minister's speech yesterday was based exclusively on liquidity. I am concerned with several economists with whom I have been speaking in the past few hours, that we are trying to ignore the other major aspect of this, namely, solvency. While the Wall Street problems are affecting liquidity, the Wall Street issue has nothing to do with the solvency of several of the institutions we are preparing to guarantee. The solvency of those institutions will be based upon the extent to which the bad debts will be problematic for them and, potentially, for us as representatives of the taxpayers. The Minister said last night that according to the numbers available to him there is an excess of €80 billion of assets over liabilities. The problem is that is an aggregate figure and those numbers are most likely based on two of the larger institutions. The concern is that, more likely than not, the two larger institutions have some form of a liquidity problem but the two smallest institutions have a solvency problem. Those solvency problems potentially could lead to a massive exposure on the part of taxpayers.

There is a €400 billion guarantee but we do not know the percentage of those numbers that are likely to be bad debts. We have spoken about transparency, and other speakers referred to the banks coming in following the DIRT inquiries, moneys in the Cayman Islands, and representatives coming in here some weeks ago, including the body over the banks, stating that everything in the garden was rosy and all of our banks are safe and sound. If that was the case, the Minister did not have to be up all night last Monday. We cannot ignore the solvency issue and the Minister is trying to pretend there is not concern about solvency. There is a serious problem with solvency in a number of the institutions the Minister is now guaranteeing.

On the terms and conditions, I support the Fine Gael finance spokesperson 100%. It will be a matter for him and I am happy to take instruction from him, as I have no doubt would the rest of the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party in terms of our support for this Bill, depending on how the Minister is prepared to satisfy what is a fair and reasonable requirement in respect of oversight. We are expected to buy a pig in a bag but, to quote a phrase that caused much consternation in the United States, the Minister cannot put lipstick on a pig and pretend it is anything other than a pig. That is the reality.

If another crisis arises overnight and the Minister has to move immediately to nationalise a bank, this legislation will give him the power to do that. That is welcome and is the reason many people on this side of the House are prepared to support the issue.

As a commercial farmer who trades on the land, I am aware of the dearth of land available to local authorities and to the State. If it turns out to be the case that the Minister for Finance, with the authority, must intervene and nationalise a bank, the land bank should be held on behalf of the State to reinstate the diminishing land stock.

In the past decade the banks never had it so good. They have provided the seller of property or lands with a place to invest their money. They provided the developers who purchased that land funds to build on the land and then provided first-time buyers money to buy that property. They then took the proceeds of profits from the developers and reinvested it. On each occasion they got a slice of the case and did very well. We have seen that in the profits that have been reported in the past number of years. Outside of the State there is no other institution that has profited as much.

I am concerned about buying a pig in a bag but on this occasion we are like the Democrats supporting the Republicans who went to war on the information that was placed in front of them. We do not have enough information and that is the reason I support Deputy Burton's amendment. The Minister should put the terms and conditions on the table and allow those on this side of the House, who have been generous to the Minister, make a fully informed decision rather than buying a pig in a bag.

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