Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)

I suspect part of the problem is that the average age of the clientele attending nightclubs is somewhat lower than the average age of Members in the House tonight. Members' aspirations to do the right thing is one matter but the practicality is entirely different. The Minister's line about staggered hours was not a bad one, that people would be staggering from one emporium to another if sequential closing were permitted. The Minister is correct that some of the 500,000 patrons of nightclubs would stagger to another venue if it were open. Whether the closing time is 1.30 a.m or 3.30 a.m, the same type of client who will stagger to a taxi or another place of entertainment will stagger after 1.30 a.m. as well. We have all known the phenomenon in the pub of people stocking up with drink because closing time is half an hour earlier, or whatever. The Minister is right that we have a problem with alcohol in this country. Anybody who has read the report about the harmful effects of alcohol cannot be but convinced that it is a real issue in our society. However, we are addressing particular legislation promoted by the Minister's predecessor as seeking to address the phenomenon of youthful misuse of alcohol, binge drinking, public disorder and anti-social behaviour. Quite frankly, the Minister and I are both out of touch if we put the great preponderance of people who go to nightclubs at the weekend — it is largely a weekend phenomenon — into that category. That is not the nature of people who patronise nightclubs. It is unrealistic to think we can correct the malaise, which we all agree exists, with this type of measure.

I thought the arguments made in this discussion related to whether this was likely to invite further public disorder and create chaos in the streets in terms of people being disgorged at the same time and creating flashpoints, as well as testing the adequacy of public transport, the capacity of public services to cope and the efficacy of policing at this hour of the night. Although we did not address the issue in terms of employment and so on, the Minister is right that there is an employment dimension. I did not make my main arguments on the issue of sequential closing on the basis of the employment considerations, but there are such considerations. For example, I had representations from a place with a theatre licence in the heart of Temple Bar. I do not know what type of establishment the Minister would expect to find in Temple Bar, given what it was defined to do — regardless of whether it achieves this end. However, the effect of the legislation on this establishment is to reduce the working hours from 31.5 to 23 per week. If the Minister is the employer, he must acknowledge that this has implications for him trying to maintain structured staffing over the seven-day week. Remember, there is very little business in these places between Monday and Thursday. This particular place functions from 11 p.m. until 3 a.m. or 3.30 a.m. To enforce Sunday closing on it would mean there would not be a Sunday opening, which has other implications as well.

The Minister is expressing a lack of faith in the maturity of the great majority of people who frequent night places of entertainment because of the actions of a minority. It is desirable to have a tough regime in such establishments and that staff are trained to deal with the phenomenon of drunkenness. For that reason, employers have to be able to structure their staffing in such a way to facilitate that. Otherwise, the issue goes underground, and we are not doing a particularly effective job at enforcing what we have at present. The notion of trying to change the character of the entire late night entertainment industry in this and other cities, because of the actions of a small minority, will not be effected by law. The person who resolves to get drunk out of his or her mind in the fastest time possible will do it whether the closing time is midnight or 3 a.m. I have read no literature that challenges that point.

We have set ourselves an objective that looks very good, but we have a problem. Some of the tragedies that occurred in this city did not happen at 3 a.m. Some of them happened in the evening, while it was still daylight. I do not believe a Bill such as this will challenge that type of behaviour. We should have some confidence in the maturity of people frequenting these places to conduct themselves in a proper fashion and allow the industry to structure itself so that there is a certain professionalism about the way it deals with things. The phenomenon of drunkenness caused by the longer hours, as claimed by the Minister, relates to a minority, and this is more complex than trying to address that minority's and our problems.

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