Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)

This prison was originally the brainchild of the predecessor to the Minister's predecessor, when it was announced gloriously some years ago as the centre of excellence in terms of prison accommodation. We have become accustomed to centres of excellence in other contexts in recent times. When one repeats the same mantra again and again, one begins to worry about it. The Minister said in his speech that it would "provide state of the art prison accommodation and facilities for education, training and rehabilitation". That is very laudable, but as Deputy Rabbitte said there was not a great deal of consultation about the matter in the first instance. There is a considerable amount of opposition to the project in its location. There is a major debate as to whether this is the ideal location for a combined prison and mental health facility. I cannot understand how modern thinking could come up with that proposal.

The Minister went on to say: "The design of the new prison will gain the maximum rehabilitative benefit from having a collection of small institutions but it will also maximise the operational benefits associated with having one perimeter wall and one central stores and maintenance service." That is a profound statement. That is the answer we have been awaiting all these years. He continued: "Each new prisoner will be assessed on their committal, to determine what risk they pose and what is the most appropriate regime to manage their future integration into society." I listened to a debate last night arising from another report which appears to indicate the system as it stands is not working and that drugs are rife within our prisons. I do not know why that is happening and why the problem has not been tackled because the Minister's predecessor's predecessor also made much about that subject when he was in this House to the effect that drugs would be completely excluded from prisons.

The Minister mentioned that by comparison with other jurisdictions Ireland has a very low prison population. I am not surprised because many of them are out on bail, in many cases after they have committed serious crimes. Recently I received information on foot of parliamentary questions inquiring into the number of serious crimes committed by people while on bail — perhaps this was what the assistant secretary was concerned about. Many people do not believe that is serious. I believe it is a very serious issue that is fundamental to the protection and safety of our society, yet nobody seems to care. Over a five-year period approximately 97,000 offences were committed by people on bail, which is an extraordinary number. While that may not be the exact number, it is in that region. In those circumstances I am not surprised. Half of those who are awaiting trial and are on bail are outside the system, walking around, committing other crimes and seemingly free to do so. It is extraordinary. I do not know what it does for our prison population. It certainly does not do much for law and order.

The considered opinion seems to be that rather than one big location, having a number of locations is the way to control the prison system to the best of our ability. This would be the reverse of that. Based on the Minister's speech there is very serious disorder within our prisons, where serious criminal gangs attack, intimidate and extort from each other. They are on a continual spree of atonement and attrition within the service. What are they doing there in the first place? If they are free to do all these things, serious questions are to be asked about how effective our prison service is. In addition, it is well known that the really serious criminals are now organising their businesses from within prisons with impunity. There seems to be no break in that whatever. They make international contact and set up contracts with each other on a worldwide basis. This is a very serious matter.

In recent times some commentators have been prone to suggest that Ireland has a very low crime rate in comparison with other countries. We may have a low crime rate — I do not know whether we do — but recent television footage showed a certain part of the country had whole blocks of houses vacated where their occupiers had been burnt out or intimidated. The whole place was left like a scene from a film set in the Second World War. That is an appalling indictment of our society and it is crazy to think that is acceptable. In no part of this country, city or province, or any other province, can we tolerate a situation whereby ordinary families are intimidated out of their homes and have to either leave or indulge in a gang war to compete with those who carry out extortion and intimidation.

The Minister's predecessor's predecessor closed down two prisons, Spike Island and the Curragh. Maybe they are still closed. We are short of space but I recall the Minister at that time saying we had too many prison places and that there was plenty of space for everybody. What has happened in the meantime? Why are our prisons overcrowded? Why is there overcrowding in various cells? Will this stop when we move to Thornton Hall? I do not think so. The regime that operates this service will have to operate the new service, and how much better will it be?

Wheatfield is a relatively new prison and those who have visited it will know that it seems to be very secure. I cannot understand how drugs get in there. It is not excusable that somebody who comes out on a visit to hospital or the courts should return with pockets full of drugs. I cannot understand why that is happening. There must be some reason for it. Why has it not been tackled? In Wheatfield the visiting facilities are such that is impossible to bring drugs into the prison. I do not know how much longer society will tolerate what is happening in this country. A Minister says we have too many prison spaces and we must close some of our prisons and move to one big centre of excellence into which we will pour everything despite the fact that considered opinion has repeatedly said we need a number of smaller places where the really serious criminals can be isolated from other inmates.

Notwithstanding the tongue-in-cheek remark by my colleague Deputy Rabbitte, all those involved, including the Garda, prison officers, courts and public representatives, know it causes some concern for various assistant secretaries in all Departments when the pretentious members of Parliament ask questions. Is that not just awful? How dare the Members of the Dáil and Seanad ask questions? I remind these assistant secretaries that it is our job, and it is tough, but that is how it has to be. The Minister's Department generally answers our questions. Not all Departments suffer from that same affliction and we note it. Sooner or later the time will come when all Departments and Ministers will have to answer all the questions they are asked regardless of whether they belong, as the Minister might see it, to some subdivision or quango created to deflect attention from himself or herself. Then they will be totally accountable. I have serious concerns about any embedded thinking in Departments to suggest it might be wrong to ask questions of Ministers. If that culture exists I advise the Minister to examine it carefully. That is not in the interests of the Minister any more than it is in the interests of the Opposition or Parliament. It is essential that everybody involved in this Administration, in all Departments, recognises that we should all be accountable. We in the Opposition must be accountable. As we are in opposition the public demands us to respond, to be proactive and reactive.

I saw the Acting Chairman looking at me with that oblique, sidelong look and I wondered what was in his mind. I was afraid he was going to tell me my time is up. I would love to have more time to discuss this issue. We do not spend enough time discussing such issues in the House. We spend a long time promising it, we spend a great deal of time with it on the Order Paper before anything happens, and when it finally gets to the House the Government spends a long time suggesting to the Opposition that sufficient time and consideration has not gone into it since its inception and that it could leave us with difficulties in the future.

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