Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)

What is really annoying is that there is nobody on the bus. Then people complain about a shortage of buses. Of course, there is a shortage of buses. The bus going around O'Connell Street could have been out to Dún Laoghaire and back again if there was a circular service running from Donnybrook, for example, around the centre of the city which people could hop on and off. The bus could have done two or three runs in the time it was choked up in O'Connell Street.

People talk about emissions. If one walks down Merrion Square, one will see cars in traffic jams waiting to get around by the Mont Clare, down Westland Row and up Pearse Street. There are emissions from the use of fuel. The city is choked with cars. Those cars are emitting more gases when stationary than if they were driven 20 miles. It is all due to the blockages in the centre of the city. We must start thinking about this. Dublin is a very small city. It would take 15 minutes, at most, to walk at a reasonable pace from here to the end of O'Connell Street. However, it is perpetually jammed with double decker buses. The cars are not the issue because car drivers will not go up O'Connell Street unless they really must. This problem requires planning.

We must make it easier for people to use public transport. What happens when people decide to drive to a public transport pick-up point because they do not live near one? They must park the car. If there are church grounds available, they will park there for the day and when a funeral takes place, people cannot get into the church yard. There are no park and ride facilities. If they park on the roadside, the local authority will eventually install parking meters on the road. That is the carry-on when we want people to use public transport. Eventually, they say: "To heck with this; I will drive all the way in." In other words, we are not making life easy for people. If we want to get people onto public transport, we have to start thinking differently. We may have to consider whether it is worth our while providing a free bus service within a one-mile radius of the city centre where people can hop on and off buses. Such buses would need to run regularly and we would have to get rid of double-decker buses, as there is no need for them in the city centre. That would free up space for motor cars to move instead of fuel being wasted while people sit in traffic jams.

We are codding ourselves. People are being encouraged to downsize their cars. However, if I have a 2 litre car and I drive it once a week, my emissions are less than if I have a 1.5 litre or 1.2 litre car and I drive it seven days a week. Does the Minister accept what I am saying? We are looking at the size of car engines but we do not ask how often people use their cars. I agree with Deputy Fahey, that if we all left our cars at home one day a week we would save a great deal. I use the DART as often as I can for selfish reasons. I only use the car when I have to go somewhere not served by the DART. I do not think I am a great fellow for using the DART — I use it because it is far easier and more comfortable. I agree with Deputy Fahey that we need to encourage people to use public transport but we have to take away the obstacles.

We spoke about bus lanes. I asked the county manager in my local authority to please explain why we have 24-hour bus lanes when we do not have buses running for 24 hours. I recently went to a funeral in Navan, an area with which the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, is familiar. After I passed the Blanchardstown shopping centre, I was in a traffic jam for approximately half an hour. God only knows how much fuel was used. When I came to the end of the dual carriageway, I got on to the old road to Navan past Fairyhouse and I saw that a 24-hour, seven-day bus lane had been installed. That means only one lane of other traffic is allowed, which is utter madness. People do not respect bus lanes because they question the logic of having 24-hour bus lanes. By all means let us have quality bus corridors and police them properly. They can be used from 7 a.m. until 10 a.m. and from 4 p.m. until 7 p.m. because that is when most buses are in use. I dare anybody to cross into a bus lane between those hours. However, in certain places there are traffic jams at 3 p.m. because empty bus lanes cannot be used. It is all about emissions. We are wasting fuel. There is no need to have a bus lane in operation at that time of the day. Perhaps there are areas where it is necessary for bus lanes to be in operation for 12 hours or 14 hours per day during the week but not to have a 24-hour bus lane on Saturdays and Sundays when there are no buses. That is what makes people cynical and frustrates them.

I hope that in his reply to the Second Stage debate the Minister will demonstrate that there will be real accountability in the new authority and that people like my good self can walk through the "Yes" lobby instead of the "No" lobby. The Minister should not put us in the position where once again we are destroying democracy.

Deputy Noel Dempsey: I am listening.

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