Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

I have sympathy for my colleagues and neighbours just across the border in County Limerick, two of whom I have had the opportunity of listening to in this debate. A sea change in representation is not welcome to the people affected.

I welcome the speech by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which clearly set out the constitutional and legal framework involved. I compliment the Constituency Commission on the basis that it has a difficult task of squaring circles. It is almost a Rubik's cube type of challenge. I am one of those who made a submission to the commission, although I must say that submissions were demanded very soon after the last general election. One needed to be reasonably alert to the time limits in order to respond. It would be better if the deadline came a bit later after a general election.

The problem with such a debate in this or the Upper House is that we are effectively commenting on a fait accompli, which means that at best our comments might be taken account of in about five years' time, if we are lucky. There is some merit in the suggestion made by the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, before he was elected Taoiseach, that a draft report should be published by the commission, perhaps setting out more than one option in some cases, so that the House could comment on the matter. I would not take the final decision away from the commission, but a draft report would make a debate like this one more useful.

The emphasis in the commission's work is on equality and that clearly takes precedence over county boundaries. I have just been doing duty in the Seanad where a rather different electoral principle applies and which possibly results in areas outside Dublin having, on average, a greater say in who is elected.

In the case of County Tipperary, there is a considerable overlap between the county and constituency boundaries. In other words, a large swathe of South Tipperary County Council's administrative area is in the Tipperary North constituency. In addition, Tipperary South takes in a bit of west Waterford, while Tipperary North is taking in a bit of north-west Offaly. There is a certain awkwardness in having a different area of representation — certainly in the country — for county council purposes, with county councillors straddling constituencies, compared to Dáil constituencies. In my own case, I would naturally prefer that the South Tipperary County Council boundaries would coincide with the constituency ones. At the same time, however, I have spent much of my life working on cross-Border co-operation and whereas, in theory, such areas could fall between two stools, on the other hand they may benefit from having the support of representatives from both sides of the border, which is a positive aspect.

My final point concerns a suggestion that, while not made by the Minister, was made outside the House. It is the question of whether we should revert to constituencies that are larger than five seats. For example, Tipperary was once a united county for Dáil purposes and up to the late 1940s it was a seven-seat constituency. In terms of terrain, however, it would be difficult for a Deputy to represent the whole county. As things stand, it takes well over an hour to travel from one end of the Tipperary South constituency to the other, and the same applies to Tipperary North. I would not advocate a single Tipperary constituency.

There is also a disadvantage, particularly in rural areas, in having constituencies of more than five seats since it would arguably make more tenuous the close link that exists between Deputies and their constituents. Obviously, the larger the area, the further one is from one's constituents, unless one divides it up geographically.

As regards the number of parties represented in this House, there are more today than on many occasions in the past. I am not in favour of the electoral system encouraging more fragmentation.

Up until the recent past, both Tipperary North and Tipperary South, which are three-seat constituencies, both elected an Independent Deputy. It is wrong, therefore, to think that three-seaters are incapable of electing Independent Deputies.

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