Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

I can express an opinion in reply on what I believe is the Deputy's position. I can do that in the House and the Deputy can stand up and disagree with me. I do not have to be kowtowed to. I could bring up the local newspapers, which inquire non-stop about when we will have decentralisation, but when I come into the House people tell me not to let it happen.

I believe and know from experience that decentralisation is a plus, but there are legitimate issues that must be addressed if it is to happen. The problem is we do not have the level of engagement to scope those issues to find out to what extent we can deal with them. The best way to solve the problem is to engage in discussion and seek to resolve the issues. As I said in response to Deputy Gilmore, where an issue arose in a business case suggesting there was another solution, another solution was found. That did not mean decentralisation did not take place. It was recast in a way that met with staff requirements and with the business case put by management. It is possible to do these things.

I am flexible and interested in trying to solve problems if they exist. However, I cannot be asked to withdraw from a policy position on the basis there is no engagement, particularly when the Labour Court has indicated that the best way of dealing with the matter is by engaging with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions centrally on all of the issues across the agencies to see if we can come up with some solutions. We do that with every other aspect of policy. If Government sets a policy and there are legitimate stakeholder issues to be addressed, let us engage and discuss them. The problem is this does not happen sufficiently.

Some people represented in the organisations have indicated a willingness to move, but whether they move will depend on whether, having looked at all the issues, it is possible for them to be accommodated in their own or another organisation. Those people are not being mentioned in the equation, but they are entitled to be represented, as we would all agree. There is not unanimity on the issue, although a strong position has been put in industrial relations terms with regard to aspects of it. I respect that position, but I cannot accept that as a result of that, in terms of the state of our industrial relations, we cannot sit down and discuss the issues. In some respects we are at that point on some of the issues. That is an unwarranted and unnecessary position in the context of whatever assurances I was able to give formerly as Minister for Finance with responsibility in the area of the public service in the interests of seeing to what extent we can solve the problems. That is the sensible approach.

In response to the Deputy's question on what was raised at a particular association's conference, the decentralisation implementation group has, as parts of its terms of reference, always been aware of the business issues surrounding the relocation programme. With that in mind, each organisation participating in the programme was asked to prepare detailed implementation plans, including risk mitigation plans, etc. Given the high levels of professionalism in the Civil Service, and its success in managing such projects — it has had over 25 years success managing such projects — I have every confidence the existing high standards of public services can be fully maintained in a decentralised environment.

This is my position. It is not based on some bald assertion or opinion but on experience. I acknowledge that the problems in the State agency sector are more complex and that the sector does not have a history of decentralisation. However, there has been a great indication of support for the process by staff. Some 11,000 individual workers in the public service have applied to the Central Applications Facility declaring an interest. This does not mean they have committed themselves fully to decentralisation, depending on how it works out, but there is significant interest.

The number proposed in the programme was 10,000. Therefore, the significant interest shown is an indication that the ambition of the programme was not misplaced in terms of the numbers interested in undertaking such a career move voluntarily depending on other factors being accommodated. Let us be fair. People are suggesting we forget about the programme because it has not happened overnight. I do not believe the facts as they stand warrant that position, although I am sure there are problems. They are there to be sorted out. Management and unions sort out such matters all the time. It is not for me to micromanage that situation. The Deputy can raise specifics to me in regard to numbers, but those matters can be resolved. It does not mean the whole programme is absurd. That is my point.

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