Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

I believe such mutterings serve as a compliment to Mr. Purcell. I prefer that we have an auditor who puts people to the pin of their collar rather than one who produces a clean report year on year. I am sure many a Government Minister was embarrassed by his reports and this is as it should be. Many Accounting Officers would have preferred if certain reports had not seen the light of day, which is also as it should be. Without that little bit of edge between the Comptroller and Auditor General and Accounting Officers, things would become too cosy. I say this by way of a compliment, not a criticism. It would be false to state everybody was always delighted with every report. Reports would not serve much purpose if this was the way because they would end up on a shelf and not be dissected in the way they have been in the past. Long may it continue that upset is caused by the publication of various reports.

The reports published are annual reports with special reports on value for money audits being produced on an intermittent basis. They have become more frequent in recent years, as, perhaps, has the need for them. During my membership of the Committee of Public Accounts I have noticed many themes, one of which is the lack of consistency with regard to information technology programmes in various Departments where the final figure is often three times the initial estimate.

Another issue highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General is the accusation or implication of overspending on infrastructural projects. While this was the case in many projects, I am equally adamant there was a significant degree of underbudgeting initially. I always believe there are two sides to a story. If people gave a realistic cost, the Minister of Finance might tell the relevant Minister a project was not feasible. I sincerely believe people submit what is termed in the construction industry a "PC sum" for the building of a railway line, motorway or hospital. By this I mean they submit a figure which seems reasonable in the full knowledge that it is only the starting point. This often added to tension. I hope it has led to better contracts being drawn up because as a result of the examination of these issues, new construction contracts have been approved by the Government. They reflect the risk being transferred to the private sector as opposed to being carried by the taxpayer. That is how it should be because if it is going to make profits, it should accept some of the risk.

Policy issues are outside the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. However, his reports highlight matters which must be dealt with. This includes the fundamental lack of commercial ability within the public service. It is not the role of civil servants to be commercial managers. They are ordinary people recruited into the Civil Service. They work their way up the line and find themselves in a position where they negotiate multi-million euro contracts with people involved in the private sector whose day-to-day jobs are in the commercial world. Sometimes, it is like sharks and pinkeens competing with each other. Some Departments do very good jobs and it would be useful for this to be highlighted in special reports in order that others can learn from them. We all hear about the difficulties but there are also good stories from which people should also learn.

We have had a great deal of discussion on the quality of the annual reports which are extremely readable. I agree. However, I have always stated I would prefer to see more graphs and charts included in the reports. I subscribe to the theory that one picture states more than 1,000 words. A Sunday newspaper in publishing the results of an opinion poll could have column after column explaining the changes in percentages. However, a chart or graph would show the changes immediately. People are now far more used to looking at charts than they used to be. They would find they absorb the detail of the report quicker through graphs. While the reports are readable, those of us on the Committee of Public Accounts and some members of the public do not have as much time as we should to read them. Graphs would give us a greater grasp of the information provided.

I will always remember the PPARS issue which arose when the Health Service Executive went to computerise the payroll system and other human resource facilities. It had 2,700 payroll items. Various hospitals had different regimes for nurses, split shifts, bank holidays and systems under which there was time off to go to mass on holy days. Amazing things happened. Due to a lack of commercial expertise in the public service, the HSE tried to sort out this managerial mess without changes and we ended up with a computerised mess. The project did not proceed as far as it should have. The lesson learned is that we need to streamline systems before we computerise them.

I would like to see more training for Accounting Officers, a number of whom are excellent Secretaries General but they are not all excellent Accounting Officers. I do not know what training is provided in this regard. As it is an important aspect of their work, I would like to see further training provided for them.

An issue continually highlighted at the Committee of Public Accounts is that people who make decisions are no longer around to answer when a report is published. They are promoted, move to another Department or retire. My straightforward view is that if they are still employed in the public service, they should be brought back to answer for decisions they took previously.

Everything I state to Mr. Purcell is in good spirit and he will understand my teasing him a little when I state not everybody was happy with everything. He knows this. I hope I will be able to state the same if I have been re-elected by the people of Laois-Offaly when Mr. Buckley retires. I hope there will be an edge to his reports because it is important that everybody in a democracy, in maintaining checks and balances, has someone to keep an eye on them.

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