Mary O'Rourke (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)

All this contributes to a student's life and results in a wonderful broadening of their minds, and they come back different people. I have never subscribed to the notion that one should stay in one's own town throughout one's education. I was dying to come to Dublin when I was 17, and so I did. What is it all about? One does not want to stay tied to Mammy forever, one wants to spread one's wings and learn what things are like over the hill. That was the case in our day and so it will remain. Indeed, student travel broadens the mind.

The ITs have been a massive success story. That is why the Minister, the Minister of State and the Department are correct in saying that we cannot make every third level institution into a university. It is a bizarre notion. In the UK, every polytechnic became a university overnight, but they were still polytechnics. We need different branches of learning and we need various skills at diploma, degree and postgraduate level. Most colleges offer education to doctoral level and beyond — indeed, one can stay a student forever if one wishes.

The ITs have been the saviour of Ireland in an industrial sense because they offered the chance to acquire skills and further learning to a population which did not previously have a chance but which had a good record at first and second level. Building on the contribution of the late Donogh O'Malley to the education system, it was a real step forward. I praise each one of the ITs, which are wonderful institutions. They have brought help, hope and aspirations to the minds of young people.

It has been good to have an opportunity to put the two matters of which I spoke to the Minister of State. I know that Deputy Haughey has listened carefully.

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