Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this very important issue of the Lisbon treaty. I will be voting "Yes" and campaigning for others to do the same. The new treaty is absolutely necessary to streamline and simplify the structures that we need for our 27 member union in the next period.

It is the right of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, to complain about Fine Gael and what some of its people were saying but I draw his attention, while he is in the Chamber, to a well organised meeting of the Forum for Europe in Monaghan. The two main speakers addressing it were Deputy Margaret Conlon who did a good job on behalf of the "Yes" campaign and Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin who did his own thing for the "No" campaign. I was most worried by the fact that, out of a large crowd, two people from the floor spoke in favour of the treaty, Councillor Seán McKiernan from County Cavan and me. A number of farming organisation representatives spoke in the negative but not one of the Minister's colleagues bothered to get involved. The main body of the crowd spoke against it. If we are to win the treaty referendum, as is my wish, it is important that those who believe in the European Union get out and sell it. Those who are against it are the same types, if not the same, of individuals who opposed it in 1973. Those in favour should not be annoyed that we may raise matters which are relevant because if we do not understand what others think, we may lose the referendum. It is vital that, where there is a forum and an opportunity, the Minister's councillors and people stand up and be counted to make sure both sides are heard.

Some may argue that we should not have to do without a Commissioner for a time but it is only sensible to curtail the number of Commissioners who will deal with the relevant issues on behalf of the Union and that we still have the safeguard of the ministerial Councils to actually make the final decisions. The same situation will be relevant to Germany, France and Britain as it is to Ireland or any of the other smaller nations. Each nation will have a Commissioner for ten out of every 15 years regardless of its size. This is reasonably fair in the light of the fact that when we first joined, the bigger countries had two Commissioners and we had one.

There are many other good reasons. I have heard that people genuinely believe we in the main Opposition party should use the opportunity to highlight the failures of the Government. There are many who believe we should vote against the treaty but I believe the future of the European Union and Ireland's place at the centre of it is a vital national interest which must come first.

I can understand the serious frustration of the farming community with the failure of the Government to reign in Commissioner Mandelson. When I spoke on the issue of the WTO in the House, I did not specifically criticise the Minister but I criticise without apology the Government, from the Taoiseach down, for the failure to reign in Commissioner Mandelson. We should remember that his activities are not the fault of the Lisbon treaty but of the Taoiseach, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at European level. Even at this late stage they should use their influence to make sure that no deal happens or, if necessary, use the veto to stop it in its current form.

In the words of my party leader Deputy Enda Kenny:

Essentially this treaty's purpose is to reform the institutions and decision making processes of the Union to cater for a population of 500 million people in 27 member states and to prepare Europe for the many challenges it faces. These include the growing economic power of nations like China, Russia and India. Other global challenges like climate change, hunger and disease epidemics require Europe to speak with a coherent voice if our continent is to be effective in contributing to solutions of these problems.

I cannot help thinking of the state of the country and the economy before we committed ourselves to the European ideal. Before 1973 we were tied to the British cheap food policy as we had no access to the European Union or support from it. We had a very clear and fully manned border with Northern Ireland, where each time one crossed it, a card had to be stamped to allow a vehicle to remain. It was equally important to have it stamped coming back out.

Our entry into the European Union gave us the opportunity to expand our agricultural production under a reasonable guarantee of return for effort. From a farming point of view, it gave us the opportunity to export live cattle to Egypt, Libya and many other areas. Likewise, beef could be exported with the support of export refunds to many of these nations. With all these European structures, we built a vibrant agricultural and food processing industry. I make the point because I come from that background.

On the other side, we received massive investment from the United States and other interested countries wanting to use Ireland as their gateway to the European Union. Ireland became a nation in its own right, was recognised clearly for stability and an ability to negotiate at European level and took its place with all other nations, especially the United States. In more recent times there has been a better relationship with our nearest neighbours, the United Kingdom.

I cannot help referring at this stage to Deputy Finian McGrath's comments on wars and so on. One thinks about the two world wars in the last century to which the European Economic Community was set up in response. I shall come back to this later, but that was some change. Under changes brought about through different EU structures the Border with Northern Ireland, like all other borders, slowly but surely came to an end, and no other group can claim responsibility for that. It came about because of involvement within the EU. We can drive freely from one end of this island to the other with little awareness of being in a different jurisdiction other than that Northern Ireland still uses miles on its signposts and we use kilometres.

It was the EU or, to be totally correct, the old EEC that first broke down the borders and the enmities brought about through two major wars and clearly the EU structures have continued to ensure that peace remains the first objective. This initiative has now been extended to east Germany and eastern European countries and has played no small role in helping to bring about the peace and co-operation that we have on this island.

When I first went to Brussels as chairman of the National Livestock Committee of the IFA in 1979, and subsequently followed in Mr. Joe Bruton's footsteps as Chairman of the European Committee for Beef and Veal, I quickly learned that Brussels and the European ideal was more about co-operation and compromise than trying to win by the benefit of a vote.

The Lisbon treaty has resulted from that type of structure, where we debate the issues and come up with the best possible compromise and solution to serve the needs of 27 states. I have no problem in agreeing with the "No" campaign that from the point of any individual or nation particular issues might be better, but this is not the way negotiations, consultations and comprise works.

The Irish delegation from all sides put a major effort into the treaty. I have no doubt it will streamline the workings of the Commission, the European Parliament and all other sectors. I am not suggesting that I have read every word of the treaty, as others have claimed to do, but I have faith in my party's advisers and personnel who have studied the details in depth and I believe we will be allowed to retain our taxation measures as well as all the other benefits we have derived from the EU in the past.

Remember it was the Fine Gael-led Government with Deputy Ruairí Quinn as Minister for Finance, which negotiated the 12.5% corporation tax which has been so beneficial to our industrial growth. I remember at that time it was clearly said that this benefit would not be allowed to continue. It was used as an issue at the time of the last European referendum to the effect that if we voted "Yes" we would lose our tax status, and some of the same people are crying wolf again. It is interesting to read the comments of some of our people who have studied this matter in depth and confirmed the legal situation. Deputy Billy Timmins specifically referred to two judgments of the European Court of Justice which made it crystal clear that all fiscal provisions must be provided for on a unanimous legal basis. In other words, Ireland can still veto any attempt at tax harmonisation and any argument to the contrary is completely false. Ireland's ability to decide on corporate and income tax rates remains a matter for the Irish authorities alone. That is clearly stated by experts in the legal and political areas. It is farcical for people to try to make out, without any foundation, that they have all the answers and that Ireland will lose that benefit.

As I stated at the outset, it is not difficult to justify voting "No" just to get at the Government. The Minister for Education and Science claimed she had to impose school water charges because of EU law but we in Fine Gael were able to prove otherwise. The EU is interested in curtailing waste but not in imposing charges that are unnecessary. Likewise, the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food claimed she could not pay REPS because of the EU. However, through one of her MEPs this story was quickly quashed and farmers received their payments. Too often the Government has used the EU as a scapegoat for the imposition of red tape. Once again, the EU is insisting that every government puts forward plans to reduce red tape by at least 25%.

I have many good friends who for their own strong reasons believe that they should vote "No". They are sick of the arrogance of the Minister for Health and Children and her refusal to take control of the health service, while frontline staff are not being replaced and individual home help and home help packages are being refused — the list goes on. I say to them, as I say to all others, that Europe is not at fault for our health problems. It is not at fault for our transport problems. If funding had been properly used we would no longer have these problems.

We have gained a great deal in funding from Europe. That may not be the case in the future because our economy is in much better shape than those of other counties who have just joined. However, there is still significant funding coming through the CAP arrangements to farmers and through social funding, but more importantly being at the heart of Europe has much more benefits for Ireland than money can ever buy. One has to be involved in the process at some level to be able to realise this.

When I was a young man travel was not an option because of cost. Through competition introduced by the EC — Commissioner Peter Sutherland had a good deal to do with it — people can now fly for as little as €5 plus taxes. This means that our school children can travel and get the opportunities that we never had.

Deputy Finian McGrath had much to say about the transfer of powers to the EU. Through the Cathaoirleach, I say to the Minister that the transfer of powers that worry me most is not within Europe but rather within this Government — for instance, the transfer of powers to the HSE, the NRA and all the other bodies that are no longer answerable to the Dáil. We can compare this to what the Lisbon treaty is doing. The Lisbon treaty is insisting that before decisions are made they should come to the Dáil, where the House will have the opportunity to discuss them and if necessary amend them, with the support of other countries. Far be it from the Lisbon treaty to take powers from this House. It will give powers back to it which I believe is long overdue.

I welcome the fact that Deputy McGrath said he was very much inclined to ask questions about the treaty, and he asserts his right to do so. I cannot help wondering why he did not ask many more questions before he insisted on joining up with the Government. That is something Deputy McGrath must question himself on and he will get far more interesting answers to this than from questions about the integrity of the Lisbon treaty.

I refer to some of the problems the Government has, especially with the WTO. The Government has a few more weeks to get its act together. I do not believe that the farmer organisations will tell members to vote "No", but they are extremely worried and not without good cause. If the present proposals are put in place the IFA figures show that 50,000 jobs will be lost in farming and 50,000 in agri-industry. There is no Minister, or anyone else, who can say that the IFA figures are not correct. It is important that this be dealt with as quickly as possible and that Commissioner Mandelson return to the previous agreement negotiated by the Government as the bottom line for the WTO talks. If this does not happen, the Lisbon treaty will not really matter and there will be extremely serious consequences for the country. I urge the Minster and his colleagues to ensure the treaty's ratification will not be affected by the WTO talks. The only way he can do this is by dealing with the talks in a positive, structured way. He should ensure European farmers, Irish farmers included, learn that Commissioner Mandelson is not the only person in charge of the European structures and that the Government is prepared to stand up to him to ensure the country does not suffer.

It is Fine Gael policy to promote the treaty publicly. My colleague, Deputy Creighton, has done tremendous work promoting it and has attended meetings in this regard. She attended a well structured meeting in Ballybay, County Monaghan. There was another in Cavan on Friday night. We intend to hold meetings in all constituencies to ensure Fine Gael's support for the treaty is made known.

Without fear of contradiction, I say to the Minister that unless his people are committed to promoting the treaty, it will not be ratified. As I said to his colleague, not one member of his party spoke from the floor at a meeting in Monaghan town. This is not the key to success in the referendum. I am not sure whether Deputy Ó Caoláin was at the meeting I attended. His supporters were present, as was Deputy Conlon and her supporters, to back up their case. The Minister's supporters were not; if he wants to win the referendum on the treaty and remain at the centre of Europe, as I do, it is essential that his troops be on the ground. It will be difficult for the Opposition to maintain its troops on the ground if it does not see the Government taking action.

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