John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)

They were meetings of the organisation and public meetings, including the European Union information meeting in Kilkenny. They have been good, well-attended meetings. We are doing as much as anybody else to ensure there is a "Yes" vote. I congratulate our new leader, Deputy Cowen. I have no doubt that once that business is finished, we will focus completely on ensuring there is a huge public debate on this issue. We are being told that we need to simplify the message, and that if it were simplified and made easier to understand, we would be far better off.

A campaign of fear is under way with many of the other political parties. In most of the debates I have listened to, they have raised issues that are not part of this treaty. They are simply flying kites and trying to ensure that people misunderstand the message. I ask people to consider generally the past 35 years of our membership and to ask, with all the scary stories they have heard, how did this type of Europe emerge if all of those scary stories were true. In fact, they are largely untrue. The stories and the debate that are now circling around, which are non-issues with regard to the treaty, should be nailed down and put to one side. Then let those parties which are voting "No" come clean and vote on the real issues that are relevant to this treaty.

The real issue is administration. It is about moving from a system that administered six European states to administering 27. I accept there will be changes and reductions of membership, which is not a bad thing because it will direct everything towards a concise type of debate and ensure that bigger or medium-sized countries look after those of a smaller size. It means that what is good for the bigger countries is good for the smaller countries.

We need only consider the investment through Europe that has taken place during Ireland's development. Some 280,000 jobs are secured by way of Irish companies trading within the European market, which is a significant number. I know from my discussions with Irish companies, and from travelling with them abroad and working with them through Enterprise Ireland, that there is a huge investment and commitment by Europe to establish a framework through the World Trade Organisation talks that will allow us to work and export to other countries. If we are to build on our export figures, we need a strong deal with Europe and we need Europe to make a strong deal with the other major world markets. We need to be out there working with those economies to ensure success for Irish companies doing business abroad.

It is significant that the argument by the "No" lobby with regard to Article 48, taxation and foreign direct investment is simply untrue — it is not a fact. I heard Mr. Ganley say in Kilkenny that this treaty was drawn up by fools and idiots, to quote him directly. That shows complete disrespect not just for the 27 states but for the public and the parliaments that subscribed to the formation of this treaty. He should be held to account on that. He also stated the treaty was bad for business. I ask Members what kind of trade they could envisage with no WTO arrangement and no European Parliament basis. Ireland would simply not be able to compete. We would not be able to gain that foothold within and beyond Europe that we need so badly to ensure the development of the economy into the future.

The treaty is about the institutions and ensuring that the administration is more competitive. It is about giving parliaments within the 27 member states the opportunity to debate the real issues around Europe. In this House, we debate the regulations in committee, when we have time. I was a member of those committees and saw the volume of regulation and commentary on Europe coming through. It would take a person's full time, 24-7, to deal with it. It would be no harm to bring this Parliament centre stage with regard to the development of legislation and regulations within Europe, which would help us have a significant input into what is happening.

I welcome the Charter of Fundamental Rights for citizens. The understanding of Europe among 500 million people in the 27 states rests on this. To think that they too have a mechanism for having issues raised, debated, corrected or highlighted is a significant step forward for these citizens of Europe. For myself, however, the treaty is about business. It is about ensuring we have a framework that will monitor what happens between states. We now have a Europe that is about peacemaking and European countries not being at war or in conflict with each other. The treaty is about reaching out beyond Europe to the other economies to ensure our foothold within the global economy is secure. Without Europe, it would be a very insecure place to do business.

In the context of the WTO talks and the new Europe, we need to consider trade facilitation, removing the bureaucracy from our exports, ensuring we can limit paperwork and perhaps creating a trading house or clearing house in Ireland to promote new opportunities in the financial services sector. There are new challenges but in the face of those challenges, there are new opportunities for Ireland. In the context of the world trade talks, we need to shove the WTO ever further in terms of trade facilitation and creating the ability for us to trade within the services we now export. Our export figures for services are hugely significant. Ireland is now the 12th largest exporter of services in the world. Where would we be without our attachment to Europe and without that significant framework which enables us to deliver that type of service?

With regard to non-agricultural market access, it is highly important that within that framework we get a significantly better deal than that currently on the table from the WTO. This can only happen by having partners within Europe with whom we can negotiate and by giving the lead in regard to how we deal with this treaty. I believe we are, in the majority, good Europeans. While we want to debate the issues and have an input, there is nothing wrong with that. However, in having that input, people will find reasons to support the treaty if they give themselves a chance to consider even the simple explanations of this treaty. Once we support it, we can then place ourselves at the heart of Europe, within the centre, and say that we debated not just in this Parliament but outside in public debates. As Deputy Varadkar rightly said, we must go beyond our political system into the public system. That will attract the public to the debate and will inform them and allow them to make an informed choice. I ask the public to reflect on what we have gained from Europe and what we continue to gain. If they are given the opportunity to do that, the only answer is to vote "Yes".

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