Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)

I am happy to do so. First, it was never the case that either I or any official in my Department believed the story presented in certain elements of the media regarding 8,000 persons. These are simply control mechanisms that are implemented consistently across a range of schemes.

Second, we have no evidence whatsoever, or reason to believe, that the 37,000 Irish citizens who live abroad and who are entitled to a contributory Irish pension on the basis of work they have done in this country are not entitled to those payments.

Third, we have no reason to believe that persons in that cohort have died and are still getting payments. We have no evidence to suggest that this is the case, but it is part and parcel of the normal control mechanisms, which have been going on for years within the Department, in these areas.

I indicated that one of the biggest cohorts is in the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. There is a strong working relationship between the pensions Departments there and here and they are in constant contact. The protocols in place involve a continuous flow of information on deaths that take place.

In cases where a person dies, there may be some death benefits available and people tend to notify the Government immediately that a person has died. Banks also do so and probate and wills processes also bring out that information. It is rare for somebody to make an attempt, on behalf of a deceased person who was in receipt of a contributory pension, to defraud the State on the basis of the person's pension rights. We do not have evidence that this is the case.

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