Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)

It was reported in a newspaper that the Department intended to introduce new rules to allow for the assessment of persons under the age of 23 years as independent applicants, which is already the case for those over that age. I accept it will be difficult to provide for this because, for example, students from outside Dublin who attend college in the city will have to rent accommodation. How will some be defined as independent and others, dependent? Earlier this week I received an inquiry on behalf of a constituent under the age of 23 years who was independent and did not enjoy a good parental relationship. I was asked whether provision could be made for the constituent in question under the education grants scheme but that is not possible. If a person starts college this year and the new scheme is introduced while he or she is still in college, will he or she fall to be dealt with retrospectively under the new provision?

There could be injustices on the other side also. If a 40-year old loses his or her job in the construction sector and moves back in with his or her parents because he or she never managed to buy his or her own property, he or she will be assessed on his or her parents' income. Will that situation continue to obtain? In the current housing environment he or she could be 60 years old and still living with his or her parents. Where will such persons stand if the new provision is introduced? We need to move to a system under which everybody over the age of 18 years will be assessed as an independent adult rather than on parental income.

As a clerical officer in Bolton Street, I used to administer the European Social Fund moneys and had to investigate the attendance roster to make sure students attended classes before paying grants. I am sure such moneys were paid irrespective of income. Several years ago the Labour Party published a report on improving access to universities, Keeping the Gates Open, which found that the information technology sector was the first to achieve better access for people from differing socio-economic classes thanks to the introduction of ESF grants. The barrier of grants and fees meant that those on lower middle incomes, in particular, chose to work instead of attending college. That was due as much to the psychological barrier as it was to the financial one. Access to college increased for everyone after the Labour Party abolished third level fees. We need to broaden the criteria because difficulties will arise in assessing why one 18 year old is independent while another is not. There is also scope for manipulating the system. Therefore, it would be better to consider a general grants scheme to cover everybody.

It is unfair that part-time students have to pay fees for third level courses, even though they cannot apply to participate in grant schemes. Equal access to education is not relevant solely to the latest crop of school leavers, approximately 50% of whom attend third level education. Those in their 50s and 60s suffered greater inequality of access when they left school. During one period 20% of school leavers went to college, while the other 80% entered the workforce. The people in question now face discrimination if they attend third level education because they are more likely to undertake part-time studies. They will have to pay fees of several thousand euro and continue to work. It would be difficult, therefore, to take advantage of the available education opportunities part-time. Last year the USI issued a statement welcoming a commitment by the Government to abolish third level fees for part-time students. As I could never find a definite commitment in that regard, the USI statement may have been premature. However, the Government's next step should be the introduction of free fees for part-time students who take qualifying courses. Aontas also campaigned on this issue and it has been recommended in a number of reports commissioned by the Government and included in the White Paper on lifelong learning. The Labour Party was the first to make it a policy that students should have free tuition when studying part time.

As a Senator, I repeatedly raised the need to make the third level education system more flexible.

The fact that our system is so rigid is a huge barrier that prevents people from less well-off backgrounds from going to college. First, they do not have the culture of going to college, but second, they feel obliged to go out to work to contribute to the family. If we had a more flexible model of education some of those people might be more inclined to go to college at whatever stage, be it from school or later.

We should have a system where one can study part-time and then change to full-time study or where one can work and study or study part-time during the day. One should be able to go in and out of the education system. Even though modules have been introduced our education system is still very much based around one-size-fits-all approach in which a once-off chance is provided to a person when he or she finishes school or one never goes. We need a more flexible system based around the idea of lifelong learning, as referred to by Deputy Cyprian Brady. Such a system would provide people with a chance to access education and get a third level qualification no matter what are their circumstances or what lifestyle they live.

If we are to have a successful economy we need more educated people. We cannot rely on the construction sector any more. We need people to be trained in science and engineering among other areas. We would get more people from different socio-economic backgrounds back into the workforce if we had a more flexible third level education system. A more flexible model of education would not differentiate between full-time and part-time students. It should be possible to study on either basis at any time of one's life. Everybody should be provided with free tuition for the equivalent of four years in third level regardless of how they choose to study.

I glanced through a report in a newspaper recently suggesting the institutes of technology had much fewer applicants this year, especially in the science and engineering area but also in other sectors. The usual problem that we have every year is that we have thousands of vacant full-time college places that are already paid for and which are part of the system. The Department has funded the teachers, equipment etc. but the places are not filled. This is a case of money going down the drain. A more flexible system of education would allow people who had just been made redundant to avail of some of the vacant places and study part-time or whatever way suited their needs best. As it is, those places are vacant and the money spent on them is wasted. The system is not flexible enough. Even if the colleges wanted to do this they could not do so because the Department has not sanctioned such flexibility. Similarly, people drop out of college after starting courses.

I went to university. I studied English and history in Trinity College. Subsequent to that I studied legal studies part-time in the DIT. My first full-time job was as a clerical officer in DIT, Bolton Street. I have a family background in institutes of technology in that sisters and brothers attended them and my father worked in the system for a long time. That system has traditionally had the type of flexibility we should have in universities. A great deal can be learned from the IT and VEC sector in terms of their flexibility and creativity in how they organise their courses and how they adapt to people's needs and come up with new course ideas.

When I worked in Bolton Street I saw one person who started off as an apprentice, became a part-time student, then a full-time engineering student and who eventually completed a post-graduate qualification. That is the way our education system should work. If that individual had wanted to go the university route he probably would not have had a chance. When he started he was very unlikely to end up with a post-graduate qualification but achieved that by working his way through the IT system.

Universities, including Trinity College, have many access programmes but they are very much tokenistic. They are good in themselves but the university structure is still very much elitist and inflexible. Universities do not open to the same extent as ITs. Even ITs do not open as much as they should and are not as flexible as they should be but universities are particularly bad in that regard. It should be a requirement of universities that they are open all the time and that they operate in a similar manner to the ITs whereby one can move from part-time study to full-time study and vice versa, and that one can progress from a certificate to a diploma to a degree and beyond that to a post-graduate degree.

There is a need for an Irish open university system. I accept one can study many of the UK Open University courses here but they are very expensive. An eight week Open University course costs approximately €350. It is a very good system and we should have a similar one here that is modelled on the UK Open University but where the courses are more geared to Ireland. If one studies an Open University course on the criminal justice system it is very much focused on the UK criminal justice system and would not be related to our system. The same is true of nursing and other courses For that reason we need an Irish open university and we need to provide a grant scheme to help people to take up courses. Distance learning is an excellent system that allows people to access course materials on-line, at home and at one's own pace. One can build up modules as one goes along. One can start with an eight week course and then do a year-long course and gradually build up towards a degree.

Regarding the need to get more people to study science at third level, it is necessary to do more work at second level to encourage students towards science, engineering and technology. We need to convince people that it is desirable to study at third level. A recent study by the OECD found that Irish students came top of the league in terms of their awareness of the importance of the environment but they were only 15th in terms of their awareness of science. We need to tap into the interest of Irish students in the environment, especially given the importance of climate change and the need for energy conservation, the need to protect habitats and all those issues that have come much more to the fore in terms of the political agenda and public interest. Much more needs to be done to make students realise at second level that if they want to do something to protect the environment it can be done through science which is key in terms of dealing with climate change etc. Environmental science should be made more of a core part of the curriculum. Multimedia teaching materials such as DVDs are very much central to education in this area as there are many programmes about the environment. In order to promote science at third level we should tap into the interest in the environment and the practical applications of science.

As a local public representative people have raised the issue of the difficulties experienced by community groups. A great deal of work is done in my constituency by women's groups in particular which promote third level study. Very often they work in conjunction with NUI Maynooth and UCD. Women's studies and community studies are popular and they are good in themselves but much more can be done in terms of grant provision to encourage those women, and men also, to study other subjects. Much more needs to be done about community education for men because it has been difficult to get men to study on a second chance basis.

We should encourage these people to study science and engineering so they can contribute to the knowledge based economy we want to develop in the future. Many of those groups have brought to my attention the issue that they can get financing for so much, perhaps to certificate level, but when they go on to do a degree it becomes extremely expensive and many of them drop out.

The Bill is welcome. I worked in the administration of grants and it is good that there is just one system streamlined into the VECs instead of involving both councils and VECs. However the Government must address equality for part-time students. They should get the same entitlement to free tuition all the way to degree level. The Government must also address a more flexible model of education and the need to encourage as many people as possible, particularly returning and mature students, to study science and technology.

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