Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)

I have taken the opportunity, in dealing with this, to go to some post offices, unannounced, to talk to customers. In fairness they seemed happy enough, although a few issues, here and there, were raised. One of the points made to me was that sometimes those who pronounce on such matters believe that once people reach 65 they become stupid and are not able to manage these things at all. Incidentally, I am not referring to Deputies Shortall and Enright in this regard, or indeed myself, in the context of debating these matters. These people got quite irate and emphasised they were as good as any 21 year old. Sometimes changes presented problems, they conceded, but they asked me to ensure they were not being patronised all the time.

I expressed the hope that I did not do that. However, they insisted there was a tendency in officialdom to treat older recipients as "fuddy duddy" and not able, but the point was made forcefully to me that this was not the case. They wanted to assure Members of the Oireachtas that they were more than capable of dealing in the modern world.

The Department is implementing a three-way strategy to change paper based payment instruments to electronic payments at post offices and financial institutions. The programme is being implemented on a phased basis to coincide with new book renewal production schedules and as personalised payable order books expire. All new claims opened since September 2007 are paid by electronic means, either at a financial institution or post office and as far as I am aware there have been no complaints from customers. The replacement of books with swipe cards will have no impact on customers paid at post offices. Customers will simply present their social services card and sign for their payment in the normal way. An Post and the Irish Postmasters' Union are committed in assisting customers in the use of cards for collecting their payments.

For those customers who cannot collect their payments in person, the Department is putting arrangements in place to allow nominated persons to collect, using a social services card. For example, a customer who requires temporary aid and facility can nominate a person on the day to collect his or her payment at the post office. Such a person will sign a form at the post office. In terms of arrangements where a customer being paid using a social services card requires an agent for a specified period, the Department can be contacted and a letter authorising such a person will be issued. The agent can use a swipe card to collect the payment on behalf of the customer for a specified period of time. Long-term, the Department is working closely with An Post to ensure a permanent solution is put in place as soon as possible to allow a nominated person to collect a payment on behalf of a customer using a social services card.

Changes to the An Post counter system are underway to facilitate and record collection by an agent using the social services card. Under the long-term arrangements, an electronic information transfer, EIT, containing the name and address of the agent will be sent to the relevant post office. The post office can verify from this information that the person collecting the payment is the authorised agent. It is hoped the long-term agent facility arrangements will be finalised this year.

A range of measures is underway to inform customers of the change in payment methods and allay fears and concerns they may have regarding the use of social services cards to collect their payments at post offices. Each customer is being informed by letter of the change in his or her payment arrangement. A letter is being sent to each person who is being changed from book to social services card, informing him or her of the change and how to use the card. A social services card is sent to his or her post office.

We have just heard this again from both Deputies, but on Committee Stage Deputies Shortall and Enright raised concerns that under the EIT payment method, customers would have to collect their payments within 20 days compared to the three months allowed to cash their PPOs. I am pleased to inform the Deputies that pensioners will have 60 days to collect their EIT payments. Where customers are paid by EIT, they will get the benefit of any increases immediately, of course, on the electronic system. Incidentally, if they are outside the 60 days they can reapply and the money will be paid to them anyway. Therefore there is no loss at all.

I am confident these arrangements will work and they will be continuously monitored for the benefit of our customers.

See this speech in context