David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)

I am pleased to contribute to the debate on this Bill. I note the Government promised in June 2002 that "we will introduce a payment of maintenance grants through a unified and flexible grant payment system" and I welcome the late arrival of the Bill. Many of us have called for this legislation for some time and I hope it will progress through the Houses of the Oireachtas quickly and, more importantly, that it is put into practice quickly. It is important that we see the benefits of this legislation as soon as possible.

I agree with the previous speaker that education is vital to our society and economy and one could say that investment in education in the 1960s marked a turning point. As a previous speaker said, the advent of the institutes of technology made a huge difference to the State. Support from the European Union at the time, which ploughed a lot of money into the sector, meant we had graduates available when they were needed. In my area of the country there are many pharmaceutical companies and the like and the availability of top-level graduates from our third level institutions is one of the main reasons they set up in Ireland.

In this time of increased competition we must ensure we continue to invest in education at all levels and see that no student is forced to drop out of the education system for financial reasons. We must also ensure that students in school and college are not under stress due to a lack of finance. Ultimately, our investment in education is paid back to the economy many times when graduates gain employment.

I am worried that we have not kept up with the schools building programme at second level and primary level. Deputies table questions every day asking when certain schools will get an extension and, as a former teacher, I know the learning environment is very important. The primary school curriculum is exciting and imaginative and I congratulate those who devised it and develop it all the time but children must have space in which to move around and learn. If children are in cramped and overcrowded prefabs they will be restricted and will lose out in their education. In the long term we will all lose out as a result because one inculcates a love of learning in children at the earliest age.

The Minister of State, Deputy Máire Hoctor, was in an Oireachtas committee meeting with me some years ago where we spoke of the issue of science at primary level and secondary level. This matter must be pushed to the fore because I know of second level students who have never seen a science experiment. If our economy is dependent on technology and science I cannot understand why we do not support our teachers more in the classroom by providing laboratory technicians. This would mean the technician could set up experiments in the classroom and the teacher could arrive from another class to teach the lesson; the students would then experience hands-on education.

It is crucially important that students experience the magic and thrill of science but in many of our schools that does not happen. I know students who will not take a science subject for the leaving certificate and one of the main reasons for this is they have never experienced hands-on science. This is not the fault of teachers, students or parents but it is the fault of the Minister for Education and Science, who refuses to make resources available to employ laboratory technicians. I am told the cost of such an initiative would be €8 million per year and this would be a fantastic investment. Schools and science teachers are crying out for this and I am sure the Minister will address the issue. Can she explain how young people are supposed to love science without seeing, experiencing and partaking in science experiments? This is what is required from the earliest age and throughout the education process. If anyone other than the Minister is listening to this I hope they take note.

I welcome this Bill as it is crucially important that we support students and I congratulate the body that created the website www.studentfinance.ie, which is also most welcome. It is important that information be freely available.

I only recently found out that an appeals system existed for those refused grants. I did not know they could appeal further to the Department of Education and Science. As far as I know they are not told that when they get a refusal letter. I ask the Minister to ensure in the interim that is done. It should be clear there are two steps of appeal already in place. The Minister talked about an appeals system, but nobody was told it is in place. It appears to be some State secret. When the legislation is enacted, students should be clearly told if they get a letter of refusal that they have a right to appeal, where to go and how to go about it. That should also be made clear if there is a second right of appeal. That is crucially important.

Much has been said about the 33 awarding bodies and some Members have questioned it. I understand one of the VECs will be asked to take responsibility for the overall IT set-up. That is crucially important for paying out the money. There are great strengths in having local bodies. I am aware a Green Paper on local authorities will be published soon and that VECs are linked to local authorities and mirror that structure. If there are changes in local authorities how will that impact on VECs? It is important to keep an eye on this because if there are fewer local authorities or if there are amalgamations there will be fewer VECs. At this stage, none of us knows whether that will happen.

The VECs have a great deal of strength. In 1997, Fine Gael proposed local education boards, but the Government that took office afterwards ridiculed that proposal and said it would not work. Now it is beginning to see that the VECs are almost becoming local education boards. They have been given more responsibility and are expanding their role, and rightly so. They have the expertise, personnel, knowledge and tradition. VECs should be further supported in their role. I understand they are being given responsibility for youth services. The Youth Work Act 2001 is still in the doldrums and I am not sure if anybody is responsible for keeping an eye on it at this stage. Again, the VECs were going to be asked to implement that Act.

It is important that VECs are properly resourced to carry out all the functions they have been asked to do and that the staff are not under pressure because the Bill provides for time limits, which is only right. I note that the Minister said the student grant application form for 2008-09 is available online. I downloaded a copy earlier. The closing date is 29 August 2008. In Scotland, for example, there is an online application facility and I do not see why we cannot have such a facility. I do not think we can download these forms at present. The copy I have here is for information purposes only and one has to get the hard copy. I do not know why we cannot download these forms but I hope it will be possible. If the motor taxation office can do it, we should be able to do so. The Minister can get her car taxed through the motor taxation office. Why is it not possible to apply online? I hope we are aiming towards that.

I note that in Scotland, application for other allowances can be made online and that students can apply as early as April, before the end of the academic year preceding third level. This means that students will have a decision on their grant application before they enter college. This is real progress. It would be of huge benefit to many students if they could apply for and get a decision on grant applications before they begin college. I have said for a number of years that should be possible. The tax year ends in December and the P60s are available in early February. There is no reason students should not have that information as early as possible. I call on the Minister to ensure this is brought forward.

I also note that Scotland has an online tracking facility and an online calculator. This means a student can go online, insert all his or her details and see whether he or she is eligible for the grant. I tried this the other night and it works. One can track one's grant application through the system. We cannot even download the forms here, as far as I know. Where are we going? I appreciate this Bill was promised in 2002, almost six years ago, but we have a long way to go to catch up with our colleagues in other jurisdictions. Many students and their families in Scotland would know almost immediately if they were eligible for a grant and, if so, what level they would receive. That is what we should aim for.

The Bill refers to full-time courses and so on but we need to look at part-time students. There are people who are working hard on low incomes and who want to go back to college to better themselves and improve their status. Once somebody does that we all benefit. Will the Minister clarify how part-time students are provided for? He or she may be working part time in a low paid job and may want to attend college at night. Can such a person apply through this new super duper Bill the Minister has introduced or will the Minister consider making that possible? Those people with initiative — some may have children — should be supported. We must help such people if at all possible. If they prove they need it we should help them. My motto is that we should help people to help themselves.

There is a provision in the Bill for the inclusion of private colleges at some stage. I am informed there are courses available in private college that are not available in other colleges. For that reason we need to look at the issue.

There is an issue with the whole area of dependency. I have come across cases where students have become estranged from parents at 19 years of age and yet the parents' income is taken into account. The student is living on his or her own and wants to go to college but is often asked for the father's P60, the mother's income or the family income. I know the Minister said in her speech we cannot have a situation where people will leave home to get the grant, but where there is a genuine case we should support them if possible.

I wish to raise an issue that may have been resolved. Bodies such as Science Foundation Ireland award scholarships. It appears that if somebody gets such a scholarship they are not eligible for the maintenance grant, even though their income is very low. That problem needs to be addressed. I know of one case, in particular, where that happened. The person was awarded the scholarship and was told he or she was not eligible for the maintenance grant because one cannot get two payments. That the person should be worse off by being awarded a scholarship is wrong. The Department is working hard to resolve the issue but I do not have the up-to-date information. Perhaps it has been resolved but, if not, I ask the Minister to look into it. If Science Foundation Ireland awards scholarships we should not penalise a person for reaching that level of attainment.

It is important we have appeals procedures. The time allowed for appeals is very long but consideration should be given to reducing it. A student could have to wait four and a half months if he or she goes through all the appeals before getting a decision. It should not take that long.

There are appeals officers who are appointed from VECs and some VECs are very small. If appeals officers are appointed from within the VEC that may cause a problem for the VEC. Perhaps the appeals officers should be appointed from outside the VEC, from another awarding body. That would help, particularly with a very small VEC, and would be important even on a rotational basis.

I welcome the establishment of the appeals board. It is important that students are represented on this board because it is they who are at the coalface. I ask the Minister to take this into account.

Despite checking the Bill, I did not find a reference to whether the adjacent rate and non-adjacent rate will still apply. These rates were introduced long ago and I am not sure they are still relevant in this day and age. What difference would it make if everyone received the non-adjacent rate? There are all kinds of anomalies in this regard. While it may be anecdotal, I have heard of a case of a man who moved the gate of his house so his car clocked up a little more distance. That is daft. Either the rate should be graduated or everyone should get the one rate. This scheme was introduced at a time when people were walking and travelling by bicycle or horse and trap. We should not be sending staff out to measure distances and clock cars and work out that if one travels a different route, the distance will be different. This should be scrapped, if it has not already been scrapped. Everyone should get the non-adjacent rate, unless there is another rationale for this measure which I cannot understand.

I referred earlier to the number of hours a student is required to spend attending a course, which is part of the conditions of an approved course. The position of part-time students needs to be addressed as a major issue.

As I noted earlier, there is a crisis with regard to school places. In my town of Midleton, both of the second level schools are full. The two principals tell me that next September they will be turning students away. One of the issues with the Department is that the information Deputies receive by way of response to parliamentary questions is very poor. The Minister should examine this issue to ascertain whether she could improve this in any way. We do not do this for political reasons. Deputies are simply representing the people but they get the barest amount of information. If a parent comes to us to find out whether a school will get an extension, and a Deputy is told the school is listed on band X, that means nothing to the parent. Will the Department give us the full information and tell us, for example, it has received and is considering the information and will probably be able to make a decision on a certain date? This would be helpful for parents. However, the information we get from the Department is dire. Perhaps the Department's staff are overworked and underpaid. The Minister should examine this issue and make a decision on it.

I welcome this important Bill. I want it implemented as quickly as possible and look forward to its progress through the House.

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