Deirdre Clune (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)

I am delighted to speak on this Bill, which streamlines and consolidates payments of third level grants through one organisation, the VEC. The title of the Bill is important and covers support to third level students. One of the better moves we made in this country was free third level education. It was positive and opened doors to many people, whether they progressed from second level or were mature students who had not had access to third level education because of where they lived or for financial reasons. It is wonderful that we can have access at all levels.

Lifelong learning is a term that everyone understands and can relate to. It means what it says literally, that at any stage one can take up education to fulfil one's life, change workplace or upskill to facilitate moving through different levels in a career. The possibilities are there and, in terms of access, not everyone has the financial means to attain education. The various grants available are welcome and are an important principle.

Some 40 years ago there were 20,000 students in third level education, while there are 150,000 today. I am fortunate to have been involved in a VEC, like the Acting Chairman, and was on the governing body of CIT. I was also involved in post-leaving certificate colleges such as the College of Commerce, Coláiste Stiofán Naofa and St. John's Central College. It was refreshing and exciting to be involved in these colleges, as well as in UCC. The latter caters for 17,000 students and is a great employer and support to the local economy as well as an icon of education.

The post-leaving certificate colleges and CIT are flexible and can respond to the demands of the marketplace. One of the courses introduced was in child care and it was developed through various levels. This was responding to a need in the market, the need for students to gain accreditation. The certificate gave people recognition in the community and allowed them to seek employment. The courses were developed with employers and the various bodies that set regulations. They were valuable and viable. It is post-leaving certificate colleges, VECs and ITs that responded to the needs of, for example, the hospitality sector. These institutions are flexible and respond to the needs of the marketplace and employers. It works very well.

I have admiration for these sectors, particularly VECs. I have every confidence in this Bill, which streamlines the process. Under the Bill the VECs will have sole responsibility for administering third level grants. If they are given the necessary staffing levels, I have every confidence they will carry out their functions. The Union of Students in Ireland supported transferring granting authority to the Department of Social and Family Affairs and I see the value in that proposal. However, VECs are educational bodies, involved in providing education. There are arguments for and against the change but this move has been welcomed by USI.

The Minister acknowledged that there have been delays and frustrations with higher education grants. A student or potential student attempting to access support is confronted with a bureaucratic maze. It is fine for people who understand the difference between the local authority, the VEC and the Department of Education and Science but the ordinary punter wants a one-stop-shop where they can make their case, give information on their income and on their parents' income and go through a clear and understandable process. We hope that will be the case when the system is under a single body.

Deputies are aware that there are variations in the speed with which applications are processed, depending on whether the awarding body is a local authority or a VEC and on the geographical area of the applicant. Obviously, when different organisations and people are involved there will not be uniform delivery of service. The Department has set up a website and published a booklet in an effort to respond to the difficulties people encounter and to facilitate their access to support. I hope it is with the objective of ensuring that as many people as possible can access their entitlements so that lack of funding or a grant would not be an impediment to them taking up their course.

The Minister said late payments will be a thing of the past, decisions on applications will occur within three weeks of the closing date and that the grant cheque will be in post within a month of starting the course. That is most welcome. This year there was an improvement with payments. There is enough negativity and criticism about the system to show the way forward to the VEC. Perhaps it could start processing applications as soon as they are received rather than waiting for the closing date. That way, if VECs required further information they would not be waiting until after the closing date to get it. In that way the process could move forward and be accelerated. The issue is access. The country needs people to avail of third level education courses to improve their educational standards.

Members were given an extensive briefing on this Bill. There are some outstanding issues, however, relating to student costs. While the grant will never cover everything, it is certainly a help and, in many cases, it makes the difference between a student taking up a course and not doing so. However, in some courses, such as in the arts and the sciences, the student might require special goggles, clothing, equipment and so forth which means additional expenditure. These courses could be identified — the information is easy to access — and it should be acknowledged that not all courses simply involve the student listening to a lecturer or instructor. Some courses demand additional expenditure.

Child care for parents of young children can be an additional cost. A total of 22% of the student assistance fund within the institutes of technology goes towards child care. Crèche facilities are essential for the parents of small children so they can be certain they will be able to attend their courses. Institutes of technology, post-leaving certificate course providers and universities are responding in terms of providing on-site facilities and there are cost reductions in those cases. However, the cost of child care should be taken into account when assessing grant levels. It is not mentioned specifically in the Bill but it is an important issue, particularly for mature students trying to improve their skills and employment prospects. There is no need to outline to the Minister the value of additional learning.

With regard to residency, the Bill provides that if a person has not lived in Ireland for three of the last five years, they will not qualify for a grant. There appears to be good reason for this provision. In some areas of the UK fees have been introduced and we do not wish to encourage people to come to this country to claim a grant without having been resident here. I welcome the provision. I also welcome the provision relating to independent third level students who are over 23 years of age. Some students are financially independent. They might have been working for some time and wish to return to education. The Bill recognises they were previously financially independent and that their parents' income need not be taken into account. It is an important point. A Member spoke earlier about this issue. While students might have been travelling abroad and can demonstrate they were financially independent, they might not have had a full-time address. They might have been renting accommodation and using their parents' address for correspondence. I am aware of people who have been refused a grant because that is their address and they do not have current rented accommodation. I hope the appeals process under the Bill will recognise this and come to a sensible arrangement when the person can demonstrate to the appeals board that although they are using their parents' address they are financially independent, are eligible for the grant and will not be living in their former family home.

The appeals process is welcome. Under the local authority or the VEC the regulations are very restrictive. It is not fair to expect an individual with a book of rules and regulations before them to go outside their remit; they cannot do it. It is important that if somebody has made a decision about a student's application for a grant, the decision can be appealed. It is not to encourage fraud but to facilitate students and give them every opportunity to put their case in a positive light.

There is a need to support postgraduates. We have moved on from talking about post-leaving certificate courses, and PhD, fourth level and postgraduate are terms we will hear more of in future. We have pitched ourselves as a knowledge economy, one based on developing knowledge and encouraging people to take up third and fourth level education. The strategy for science, technology and innovation has a target to double the number of PhD students by 2013.

To study for a PhD can take four to four to five years, on average. That can mean students who have gone through an undergraduate programme and completed a PhD could be in their late 20s before they are ready for the employment market. Some of them will receive support during their studies and will be financially rewarded, either through the university or by industry. However, if we are serious about encouraging people to go to that level and about developing the term "fourth level" as a currency when we speak of education, then we must recognise that it costs money to reach that level.

Fine Gael, as part of its election manifesto, proposed the introduction of a package of subsidised loans for PhD students. I ask the Minister to examine that proposal and consider introducing something along those lines because it is important. We need to encourage more students in the areas of science, technology and engineering. The take up of science and technology is woeful and is actually dropping. The take up in computing has dropped by 58% since 2000. The uptake in engineering is also extremely low, particularly electrical engineering. The number of undergraduates doing science is down by 5%, while the number doing computer science is down by 19% since 2000. The take up of maths and science at a high level is declining. While maths and science are not everything, they are extremely important for this economy. We must do more to encourage students to take up those subjects.

We do not have a history of acknowledging science in this country. The Minister's title refers to education and science but I would like to see much more emphasis placed on the science aspect. It is vital for our economy. Furthermore, people become interested in the subject if they are exposed to it. Science Foundation Ireland is doing excellent work with primary school students but does not provide full science courses. We must encourage science and ensure it is part of the curriculum. We should examine the possibility of making science compulsory at second level. Approximately 13% of students who completed their junior certificate last year did not study science. Therefore, if they did not take up the subject in first year, they are never going to do so. We must increase the take up in computers, engineering, science and technology at third level. At primary level, we are not giving science the emphasis it requires. A cultural change is required to develop science in this country.

While the postgraduate and fourth level area may not relate directly to this Bill, it is an issue deserving of further debate. I broadly welcome the Bill before us. I support the VECs and for the student or potential student, the Bill gives a very clear message that there will be one authority dealing with grants. I hope the VECs will further develop the expertise they already have in communicating with students and making it easy for them to negotiate their way through the various grants available. I hope the introduction of the Bill will streamline the process for the applicants and ensure grants are paid on time and with a certain degree of reliability, for the benefit of students.

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