Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

I wish to share time with Deputy Power.

I was interested in the points made by Deputy O'Shea and I will return to them presently.

This Bill is to allow for the provision of services in a bilingual State in which there are two constitutional languages which are the two official languages. We should not lose sight of the fact that if we have a State with two official languages and if the various arms of the State, including the courts, are to operate in those two languages, it is reasonable to make provision that there will be people competent to provide services in either of the official languages. It is taken as given that anybody practising within the State would have to be competent in one of those official languages at least to be effective. For instance, a monoglot French or German speaker, no matter what knowledge they had of Irish law, would not be perceived as being competent to operate within the Irish courts system. However, it is also taken as given that the majority of people who seek to practise at the Irish Bar, or who operate as solicitors within this jurisdiction, would have knowledge of the English language. What is not equally obvious is that there is also a need to ensure that there are people competent to conduct court cases in the first official language and who will be readily available to the public. The nub of the issue is to provide for that service.

I have held an opinion for many years — people in the Irish language movement disagree with me on this point — that shadow rather than substance should be done away with. I have no major difficulty in saying that the current examination in ordinary Irish, which to my knowledge, served no purpose and was of such a low standard that it did not mean anything in terms of competency should be done away with. This is what is being proposed in this Bill.

On the other hand, if I as an Irish speaker wish to do my business with a solicitor or if my case requires a barrister, I should be able to access a list of accredited practitioners who are genuinely competent to conduct business through the Irish language and this is what the Bill sets out to provide. The first challenge is to ensure that those who pass the examination at the end of that voluntary course are competent to do business through the Irish language.

It must be ensured that anybody on that register is of sufficient standard as in the similar system applied in the accreditation of translators by Foras na Gaeilge. The register is meaningless, just as the current register which shows every qualified barrister and solicitor as being qualified in Irish is completely meaningless, unless the standard is high enough to deliver on the reality.

As Deputy O'Shea said, a large number of solicitors are competent to do business through the Irish language. Some of them acquired the language through the education system while others had Irish as their home language. I know solicitors and barristers with whom I never speak English. It is reasonable that those people and others qualified like them, would be on a register and easily accessible to the public. Many other things could then flow from this arrangement. For example, the courts service could in the future decide as part of its language plan to ensure that people with this level of competency would be appointed as District Court justices in areas which include Gaeltacht areas.

For the first time there would be an objective measure at a reasonable standard by which one could make that judgment and be fair, independent and objective. As the situation currently stands if one wishes to appoint a District Court justice with a competency in Irish there is no ready and objective measure as to whether the person has Irish to satisfy the requirement.

The accreditation issue is very important as is the idea of having a high standard of Irish and having a real measure of that standard. It is important to do away with an examination that from all the reports both from the King's Inns and the Law Society does not test the competency to do anything in Irish.

Deputy O'Shea raised the issue as to why one would have to sit a course in legal terminology and he also referred to students being bored. When I was studying science years ago in UCD, a requirement for doing an honours degree in science was to study some French or German and learn enough of those languages to be able to read scientific texts. That may not be very important in the modern world but that is the way it was. Nobody ever said it was compulsory to know German or French to become a scientist in UCD. The standard was not very high but it was a mandatory requirement and one could not get the degree without it.

Terminology is a valid issue. Solicitors in particular are people of first instance. In other words, a solicitor in one practice can send a document in Irish to another solicitor with a heading "Urghaire Cúirte", or better still, "Urghaire Ard-Chúirte". It would be fairly basic legal and customer service that one would immediately know that an urghaire is an injunction and the Ard-Chúirt is the High Court, and that one had better get somebody fast to read the document and find out what the hell was going on and who was coming at one on behalf of one's client.

It is a reasonable premise for a legal practitioner to have a knowledge of basic legal terminology in Irish, especially in the case of solicitors because that is where notification goes in the first instance. Barristers are slightly different because I understand solicitors usually choose barristers. It is appropriate that part of the course of becoming a solicitor in the State would involve learning basic terminology in Irish so that documentation would trigger certain warnings, or a solicitor would be aware that a certain document was simply a notice of information. It is important that solicitors would be able to get the gist of what the correspondence concerned before looking for somebody to translate it. It will not be necessary for a solicitor to deal with a case in Irish. One will not have to solve the problem but be capable of knowing the gravity of the issue confronting one. A solicitor has no choice over the official language in which a document will arrive at his or her office.

I do not buy the argument about compulsion in the manner outlined by Deputy O'Shea. I have been clear about this. I see no point in a compulsory exam that is meaningless and provides no practical end. However, I see merit in saying that an intrinsic part of a course within this State provides for many different things. As far as I know, if one does a course in law, it includes mandatory areas of study such as financial law, corporate law, tort etc. My colleague opposite, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, would know more about what one has to study. There are parts of the course one might never use in a day-to-day family practice. Likewise, if one specialises in an area of corporate law, one might never use the information about family courts. People learn many different things on university courses and in other third level institutions that are mandatory parts of courses even though they may never have recourse to this information in their working lives.

It is reasonable that a course in basic terminology in the Irish language would be mandatory because it would serve a useful purpose. A knowledge of basic legal terminology would be more pertinent than Jimin Mháire Thaidhg or Peig Sayers bhocht. What has been examined by my colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and what has been discussed with my Department is what would serve our purpose within the construction of this State as a bilingual one in which people have two official languages, the first official language being Irish and the second official language being English, and what would provide the maximum service to the public. It is as simple as that.

Deputy O'Shea has raised many technical issues. No doubt there will be a comprehensive and detailed Committee Stage on this Bill and my colleague Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, will listen to all the suggestions made. If there are drafting flaws in the Bill they will be addressed. All Ministers are open to improving legislation by clarifying issues that are brought to their attention. Let us trash out any problems on Committee Stage and examine the fine print. It is easy to make mistakes in drafting legislation, which is complex at the best of times. I cannot give a judgment as I am not a barrister or solicitor but if issues arise in terms of the transition period or any other matter, they can be addressed on Committee Stage.

Is dóigh liom go mbeadh sé chomh maith dom cúpla rud a rá i nGaeilge. Tá mé cinnte go mbeidh an-spéis ag na meáin Ghaeilge sa cheist seo. Sílim go bhfuil sé fíor-thábhachtach, agus muid ag dul ar aghaidh anseo, go bhfaighmis réidh le rud nach bhfuil ciall leis. Tá mé ag caint mar gheall ar rud a chuireann olc ar dhaoine, rud nach bhfuil feidhm mór leis ó thaobh seirbhísí de. Ba cheart dúinn rud eile a chur ina áit as a mbeadh feidhm agus tairbhe, agus a chiallódh go mbeadh deis ag níos mó daoine úsáid a bhaint as an Ghaeilge i seirbhís na cúirte.

Ar ndóigh, aon uair a ndéanaim athrú bíonn daoine i mo dhiaidh. Níl aon amhras sa gcás seo go mbeidh daoine a rá go bhfuilimid ag fáil réidh le sean-dualgas a bhí ar dhaoine le fada — bhí ar gach abhcóid agus gach aturnae sa tír Gaeilge a bheith acu. B'fhéidir go bhfuil fírinne éigin sa scéal sin ar pháipéar, ach níl fírinne dá laghad ann go praiticiúil. Is é mo thuiscint ná nach gcaithfidh na daoine a dhéanann na scrúdaithe seo mórán Ghaeilge a bheith acu go minic chun pas a fháil. Chuala mé é sin ó dhaoine a rinne na scrúdaithe. Bhí an ceart ag an Teachta Ó Sé nuair a dúirt sé go bhfuil sé thar a bheith spéisiúil nach dúirt ach 68% de na abhcóidí agus aturnaetha go bhfuil Gaeilge acu sa daonáireamh a bhí ann le gairid. Taispeánann sé sin nach bhfuil mórán céille leis an leagan amach atá ann i láthair na huaire.

Ar an dtaobh eile den scéal, dá mbeadh mise maidin amárach ag iarraidh abhcóide nó aturnae le Gaeilge a fháil le ionadaíocht a dhéanamh ar mo shon, ní bheadh aon áit oifigiúil ann ina bhféadfainn dul ar tóraíocht lena leithéid sin a fháil. Is laige uafásach é sin. Mar is eol do na Teachtaí, dá mbéinn ag iarraidh aistritheoir Gaeilge a fháil, de réir an socrú a rinneamar le Fhoras na Gaeilge, bhéinn in ann fhéachaint ar liosta na n-aistritheoirí cáilithe. D'fhéadfainn a bheith cinnte go bhfuil chuile dhuine acu siúd in ann an obair a dhéanamh ar ard-chaighdeán. Níl a leithéid de liosta ann sa chás seo. Níl aon chóras ann i láthair na huaire chun liosta de abhcóidí agus aturnaetha le Gaeilge a chruthú. Ar ndóigh, soláthróidh an Bille seo a leithéid de liosta agus cinnteoidh sé go mbeidh aturnaetha agus abhcóidí ar an liosta a bhfuil in ann, i ndáiríre, obair a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil cúpla aturnae i mo dháilcheantar fhéin a bhfuil cáilíochtaí Ghaeilge acu. Bíonn a lán daoine, go mórmhór pobal na Gaeltachta, ar tóir na dlíodóirí úd. Ní hé nach bhfuil Béarla ag pobal na Gaeltachta, ach go bhfuileadar níos compórdaí ag plé le daoine ina dteanga dúchais. Tá sé sin faighte amach agam fhéin, mar Theachta Dála don dúiche. Creideann daoine gur chóir go mbeidís in ann idirghabháil a dhéanamh leis an aturnae agus leis an Stáit trína rogha de theanga oifigiúil. Mar sin, dá mhéad de na daoine seo a bheidh cáilithe — dá mhéad caighdeán a bhainfidh leo — is fearr a mbeimid. Tá an saol ag éirí níos casta, ar ndóigh, ach tá saol na Gaeilge ag éirí níos foirfe freisin, buíochas le Dia.

Bíonn comhairle dlí á lorg go minic ag Raidió na Gaeltachta, TG4, Údarás na Gaeltachta agus dreamanna eile nach iad. Tá go leor eagraíochtaí, ar nós corparáidí, na chomharchumainn agus Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta Teoranta, ag feidhmiú trí Ghaeilge faoi láthair. Tá cuid acu taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Bíonn siad ag lorg comhairle maidir le cúrsaí corparáideach nó dlí airgid, mar shampla. Tá siad ar bior chun go mbeidh daoine ar nós saineolaithe ar fáil trí Ghaeilge. Táimid ag trácht faoi na réimsí sin dlí, fiú. Nuair a bheidh na liostaí seo againn, beidh na eagraíochtaí ar fad in ann tarraingt ar na liostaí seo chun a dhéanamh cinnte go bhfuil siad in ann teacht ar na saineolaithe is fearr le Ghaeilge.

Tá mé thar a bheith muiníneach go mbeidh dóthain abhcóidí agus aturnaetha, le togha na gcáilíochtaí agus togha na Gaeilge, ar fáil chun seirbhís oiriúnach a chuir ar fáil. Mar a dúirt mé i mBéarla, creidim gur cheart go mbeadh ar chuile aturnae, go mórmhór, ach abhcóidí freisin, buntuiscint a bheith acu ar bunthéarmaí dlí i nGaeilge. Ligfidh mé le mo chomhghleacaí, an Teachta Peadar de Paor, cúpla focal a rá.

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