Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

Deputy Gilmore raised a number of points. There is no doubt that early intervention in the community with programmes such as the breakfast scheme, the preschools and the additional facilities in disadvantaged schools, such as lower pupil-teacher ratios and after school projects are preventive measures. Most of these schemes did not exist before I became Taoiseach. In Cherry Orchard, an area that had a high level of crime and other difficulties, we have provided a high level of facilities in the new model school to help child protection. We will continue to do that. It is essential that FÁS or other schemes help to save young boys and girls from getting into crime.

There is one area in the State where we have 75 Garda working in a fairly small community, where a few years ago six or seven gardaí were trying to deal with the situation. That is the level of resources it takes. There are still dysfunctional families who will not co-operate. What the members of the Garda who are in the front line are saying is that the reason the Garda record is so good in the cases of non-gangland murders, where the detection rate is very good, is because of the information it gets from the community, as we have seen in Galway. In areas of gangland crime, the situation is different, and even those who are threatened will not speak. Nobody associated with those being killed will speak. The Garda, unlike the teacher, the doctor or the politician, needs evidence. The system of justice is evidence based. The Garda brief me about this or that gang, but if there is no evidence, the Garda cannot prosecute. The reason that people can walk around is that the law in a civilised society does not in some cases operate in a way that catches these people. This difficulty is not confined to Ireland but exists elsewhere. If one wants to go a different route, one must think very carefully about the downsides to it. The Garda Síochána cannot be in every driveway, every pub carpark and every highway watching the known criminals and their associates, however, it is putting significant resources into Operation Anvil and other such initiatives in trying to follow up cases and get information. That task is horrendously difficult in this city and in at least one other city. That does not mean anyone has given up. We have tough criminal justice legislation, but people have the right to silence, and will sometimes not co-operate even when it is in his or her own interest to save his or her life. That is creating pressure for the Garda Síochána. That is a fact. The Garda know this better than you or I.

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