Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

The dispensing of methadone does not come under the agreement, which is the subject of the dispute. Whatever the merits of the dispute, the 3,000 methadone users should not be affected by it. There are ongoing talks with the HSE. The parties met on 3, 11 and 16 October under the auspices of Mr. Bill Shipsey SC. I do not know whether they can resolve the issue.

The savings on the new wholesale margins are substantial. In the next three or four years the estimated savings will be €260 million on a drugs bill that is rising significantly year on year. As the HSE sees it, in its examination of the issue — the Department of Health and Children and the Government agreed with it — this is not an enormous amount in what is a very lucrative business. We can see what is happening. Three or four years ago I was listening to the argument that pharmacies would be put out of business, but since the last dispute, a further 300 have opened and are, according to the figures I have seen, are doing very well.

Let me explain the legal position. Whatever about its unsatisfactory nature, when the HSE team sought to negotiate the new wholesale margins with the Pharmaceutical Distributors Federation, PDF, which represents full-time wholesalers, it refused to negotiate new margins for community pharmacists because it was its legal advice that it did not have to negotiate them. The HSE also received advice that under section 4 of the Competition Act 2002, it was prevented from negotiating directly with undertakings or associations of undertakings. This applies also to the representative body for pharmacists, the IPU. Deputy Gilmore asked who gave the legal advice. First, the Pharmaceutical Distributors Federation took legal advice. The HSE then sought such advice, as did the Department of Health and Children, which advice concurred with that of the HSE. The Office of the Attorney General and an independent senior counsel have endorsed this advice. They all agree this is the position.

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