Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)

I welcome this important and necessary legislation. That it has taken so long to come before the House means that a dedicated staff put the Bill together and the two Ministers of State involved, Deputies Noel Ahern and Pat Carey, took care and attention to ensure that representatives of all charitable organisations had an opportunity to make submissions, which were considered when drafting the legislation. Obviously not everyone is satisfied; it is never possible to achieve that. However, I am sure that consideration could be given to Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's proposal to invite some of the groups to appear before the committee before the later Stages of the Bill. With the present state of the committees I am not sure whether it is possible. It might represent a new way to consider legislation in terms of combining all our assets. We need all the possible assets for a Bill of this magnitude, which will play a major part in everybody's lives.

We want the Bill to go through the House as quickly as possible and want to help in every way to ensure it is feasible. Obviously the interesting interpretation of the Bill by the various charitable groups has led to a considerable amount of representations. While it is the intention of us all to have the Bill brought to fruition as soon as possible we must also be very careful that all the concerns of the various interested bodies are investigated and determined. Irish people are world renowned for their generosity, which can be noted on an almost daily basis by groups or families nationally or internationally expressing their thanks to the Irish people for the generosity that has helped them to alleviate a big or small tragedy that affected their loved ones or themselves. Many tragic circumstances ranging from earthquakes, flooding, tsunamis right down to a house fire, which can be such a tragedy for a family, have seen the Irish people play their part. As Deputy Jim O'Keeffe has said, a Trinity College research document has estimated the value of such generosity at €500 million for fundraising in Ireland, which is an unbelievable figure, with the voluntary sector in general generating €2.5 billion. One can clearly see that we all agree to having the transparency provisions of the Bill approved and introduced as soon as possible.

Charity affects everyone in this great country of ours and can be broken down into three different sectors — the donors, the employees in the sector and the recipients. In too many instances recipients depend on the work of charitable organisations to have a better standard of living when the Government of the day has fallen down in its commitments to those less well off than we are. A case in point is the wonderful work being carried out by the Women's Aid group, which provides a service to women who are battered, beaten and in many cases sexually assaulted by husbands, family members, loved ones etc., yet the phone service the organisation provided was under-funded by the Department of Health and Children and the HSE such that two of every five calls went unanswered. This terrible tragedy that a woman in her darkest hour of torment could not access a friendly voice went on for more than three years before the HSE provided a paltry €70,000 to meet the cost of a telephone staff that could meet the demand.

I highlight this example to show that many of these groups would do far better by working with the people for whom the funds are raised rather than running raffles or roulette tables and standing on street corners, etc. In those instances the Government must consider providing funding. The cake can only be divided out so much. If, in cases where funding should be provided by the Government, money is being taken out of the cake by those trying to provide a service it means that other people will obviously lose out.

This is only one of many cases that, sadly, we could mention where the Government has fallen down in its commitments to groups which end up dependent on the work of a charity to have a decent standard of living or integration into normal society which so many individuals and families crave. The field workers or employees at the coalface are the flag-bearers of many charities that in many instances operate without Government funding. This wonderful work that in so many cases is voluntary without personal gain raises one the often-asked questions of the effectiveness of charities to provide a service considering the administration costs vis-À-vis the value of what is happening at the coalface.

We must ensure that these wonderful people, whom we see every day in so many segments of society, some of them unknown in the amount of work they do including organisations such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others, are not undermined by a lack of transparency regarding the financial transactions or workings of the charity in which they are involved. The legislation should ensure that their positions are verified now that such organisations will be required to prepare accounts and be registered thereby ensuring that the ordinary person on the street can see that the money he or she gave was used effectively.

Among the representations we have received, representatives of The Wheel have been very vocal and persuasive. Its director of advocacy, Ivan Cooper, has done a considerable amount in helping us to make this case today and on Committee Stage. Representatives of The Wheel asked one very important question on how we would handle spontaneous community fundraising, for example, in cases of a house fire, a personal family tragedy or a major tragedy in a particular area. Having searched the Bill I do not see any provision for such funding. While we will obviously review the matter on Committee Stage, I would like the Minister of State to indicate how it will be handled. I do not know whether such spontaneous fundraising happens in the cities, but we certainly have it in rural Ireland. I do not say this against the previous Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Noel Ahern, but the current Minister of State has the best of both worlds. As he has a background in a rural community and now represents a densely populated part of the city, he knows what I am talking about. He knows that spontaneity must not be dented by the legislation. Amendments must be made to ensure transparency while ensuring the spontaneity associated with community involvement is not affected.

The Bill sets out to address the many concerns expressed over the years by the public who are very concerned about the effectiveness of the many millions of euro they donate to thousands of charities in the State and who wonder about this. For example, The Wheel states it has 760 charities on its books. The legislation could cause major problems for these charities when it is enacted. Deputy Ring is correct that charities should not have to bear a cost as a result of the legislation. I cannot figure out how the departmental officials who drafted the Bill concluded that charities must make payments. The word "charity" implies giving to those to whom an organisation's focus is directed. A charity should not have to give to the State. I cannot understand how a charity can be expected to maintain its operations while complying with the legislation.

For example, under one of the Bill's provisions, if a charity does not provide its accounts up front and has to hire an external auditor to examine its books, it will have to pay the auditor's fees. While legislation is required, we must not lose sight of a central issue — the charities that are run in many instances on a voluntary basis by people who perform above and beyond the call of duty to provide for the less well-off. We must never deviate from that. I have known the Minister of State for a long time and I hope he will examine this provision so that a scenario will not emerge where money will be taken from a charity by the Exchequer when it could be used for the benefit of those for whom it was collected. The moneys raised by charities are donated for the specific purposes with which the charities are identified and not to be given to the Exchequer. I hope that a major initiative will be taken by the Minister of State to overhaul this provision, which will be discussed again on Committee Stage.

We have received many submissions and the Minister of State referred to the advocacy issue raised by Barnardos. That organisation considers this a problem because it would affect fundraising and so on. However, did the Minister of State say the provision will not be included in the legislation?

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