Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)

Fine Gael welcomes the Bill, in principle. I have some reservations with which I shall be dealing on Committee Stage. I have spoken in this Parliament for many years and believe fundamentally that whatever agency is set up by the Dáil, whether regulator or authority, must be accountable to this House — not to the Minister concerned, but to the House. I shall table the appropriate amendment on Committee Stage, asserting that any Member of this House who wants to put an appropriate question to a regulator must be answered. I am sick and tired, as a Member of this House of being fobbed off as regards the National Roads Authority, the HSE and many more agencies, when I question a particular Minister and am told that he or she has no responsibility for the body concerned. My amendment will seek to ensure that when an authority is set up it is answerable to the House, not the Minister. I trust the Minister of State will accept that amendment when it is tabled on Committee Stage.

I want, first of all, to welcome the legislation. We have talked about it for some 20 years. Everyone who is involved in charities will welcome it. In one way it is sad that we need charities in this country. We should not need them if Governments were doing their job. If the State provided the funding and we had a just society, we would not have wheelchair associations and different groups such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others collecting money on the streets. That is why charitable organisations are needed.

I offer thanks to those who work in charitable organisations, people who participate in a voluntary capacity, who do not look for money but want to help their fellow human beings. I am thankful for the community spirit that exists in this country. The Irish are the most generous of peoples. Anytime there was a crisis outside Ireland the Irish people have responded. However, they do not like to be ripped off by people collecting money for charity who put it in their back pocket. That is why I welcome this legislation. I shall be glad to see that we have regulations, a permit system in place and that charities will have to be registered at the end of each year regardless of what moneys they collect. The general public can check with the authority on how much a particular charity collected, how it was spent and where the money went. The Irish people will welcome that. They want to know that when they give their money for charity it is used for that purpose and not taken away by somebody else.

Another matter that annoys me is that every weekend outside churches and supermarkets one sees people wearing yellow vests, with no identification, pressing tickets on people and asking them to sign up either through direct debit or cash to some charity or other. One does not know what the charity is and nine times out of ten the identity of the person is not known. That is why it is time that we had regulations for charity, to know who is collecting money and for what. I welcome that aspect in the Bill.

I know some charities are concerned about a few of the issues in the Bill. There is a reference in the Bill as to whether a collection might be for a political purpose. My colleague from the Labour Party will table an appropriate amendment in this regard. It would be very wrong if legislation were to be introduced in the forthcoming budget which was unjust to the poor and a member of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, for example, who lobbied to have it set aside were to later decide to take part in politics. That must be addressed in the Bill. I know the Minister of State will deal with it as quickly as possible because it would be appalling if some bodies were debarred from being charities for the wrong reasons. When that amendment is tabled I know the Minister of State will accept it.

The heads of the Bill stated that a charitable purpose must include the advancement of human rights, social justice and social inclusion and citizenship, and the advancement of the effectiveness and efficiencies of charities. Will the Minister of State say why that provision has been removed and whether it was necessary? Charity is all about social justice and these charities fear that they will be affected if that provision is not reinserted. I ask the Minister of State to accept the appropriate amendment on Committee Stage when it comes before him.

As regards the Bill, people in the charities sector are concerned that when the regulator is in place, he or she must have a clear role. I welcome the appointment of a regulator but the purpose of that office must be to regulate. He or she must make clear what is expected from a particular charity, not what the regulator believes it should be doing. Charities are concerned lest the regulator interferes with their day to day business, and that should not happen.

Another issue, which the Minister of State touched on in his speech concerns State agencies that get tax relief for charity purposes. There should be two registers, one for charities per se, and another for the State agencies. Charities are for the benefit of the community and the public because they collect charitable moneys. State agencies are obliged to carry out their roles, as regulated by the State and in accordance with the law of the land. There are 25 State agencies which will be affected by the legislation and they should be in a different register from the charities. I ask the Minister of State to look at that as well.

The Bill has received a broad welcome. For a long time we have been seeking this type of regulation to ensure that moneys collected by charities are spent wisely and used for the purposes raised. As someone new to this portfolio I only started to learn about the charities Bill within the past 48 hours. I compliment my colleagues, Deputies McGinley and Jim O'Keeffe, both of whom had a major role in this area in the past. Both of these Deputies have strenuously pushed for this Bill to come before the House.

It is important the authority is put in place and the legislation is implemented as quickly as possible. It is also important the public has confidence that the money they give to charity is used for that purpose. The authority must be strong, independent and fair to charities. There are two types of charitable organisations. There are the national organisations with significant staff and smaller organisations in communities with people out collecting. They must also be protected by this Bill. It is important that one is able to go up to a person collecting for charity and ask for what charity he or she is collecting, if one can see his or her badge and if he or she is registered and has a permit.

It is important people can log on to the Internet, which most people can use, to see what has happened their money, how much has gone on administration and how much has been spent on the charity. People are looking for accountability, which this Bill will provide.

There are some concerns, one or two of which I mentioned. A number of the organisations will speak to us before Committee Stage. This Bill is about regulation. We must regulate and have law and order in this field. However, it is important we do not over-regulate the charities. They are doing a job and are dependent on volunteers in some cases and on people to help and back them up. It is important we give them the help and financial support they need. I hope that when the authority is up and running the charities will not pay for it. We hope the Government will pay for the staff and that the authority does not pass on the charges to the charities. It is bad enough that these charities are in existence in the first place, that they must fight for people who are not being treated properly by the system and that they must collect money to put into the system, but it would be wrong if the charities found themselves paying for the authority and its staff. I hope that is dealt with by the Government.

There are over 19,000 community and voluntary groups in this country. What they need is more help than regulation. When the authority is given powers, its job must be to regulate and not to tell the charities how to run their businesses, which they must do themselves. The role of the authority is to investigate charities if they are breaking the rules or if there is something wrong. The people want to know that when they support charities the money is used for the intended purpose.

Fine Gael welcomes the Bill. Accountability to the Dáil is important. I do not want to be a hypocrite so I must say that I am sick and tired of powers being taken from the Dáil and being given to regulators and organisations such as the Health Service Executive and of us having no say. I will not call a vote on Second Stage but I will put this issue to a vote on Committee Stage. I hope the Minister of State will accept an amendment that the authority will be accountable to the Dáil rather than the Minister of the day.

I thank the people who have worked hard for charities and to promote social justice and ensure those who are not well off are looked after and not forgotten by society. I hope the Minister of State will deal with some of their problems. It is important people are allowed to campaign for social justice and that it is not regarded as political. If an organisation wishes to support a political cause, it should be able to do so. However, no political party, candidate or organisation that is outlawed in this country should be supported by a charity.

Charities have always operated within the law. However, there have been problems in charitable organisations with which we have not been able to deal, but with this regulation we will be able to deal with them. The law will be on our side in ensuring people's money is protected.

I welcome regulation but I will have a lot more to say on Committee Stage. I am glad the Bill has come before the House. I will raise issues on Committee Stage about which the charities are worried. The public must have confidence when they give money. I am glad to see that organisations will be registered and will have permits, that their accounts will be examined and that they will have to present them to the authority. It is important the facility is there for the public to see where their money has been spent.

I hope the Bill will be implemented and that the authority will be in place as quickly as possible. I hope the charities will not pay for the authority but that the Government will do so. I do not believe we need an authority and cannot understand why the Department cannot perform this function as there are enough civil servants. A person in the Department should be appointed to perform this function. However, since the Government is opting for an authority, it is fine provided it is accountable to the Dáil and not only to the Minister.

I welcome the Bill and will have a lot more to say on Committee Stage. The people involved in charitable organisations throughout this State are glad to see this Bill. They want to see fair regulation and to be able to work with the authority rather than see it work against them.

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