Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

I am confident that we will achieve that position.

I will deal with the point about the charter first. I fully support the charter and have done for the past seven years. I fully supported its being part of the full agreement but we were not going to reach consensus on that issue. Several countries wanted it to be separate. It will, however, have the same legal status as the treaties and applies to all areas embraced by the Union and where member states apply EU law. That position is clear and from a legal point of view we are happy with the charter.

Late in the day the United Kingdom introduced a complex legal document setting down its opt-out on the charter. Late on Friday night I asked for legal advice on this document. The preliminary advice I received, which I appreciate was given late at night, was that this would not create a difficulty for us but that we would need to examine it closely. This applied not only to what the British sought but to how the European Court of Justice might ultimately interpret the British position. We did not get a formal opt-out but there is a note in the treaty where I state that I want to have this issue examined. The Polish issue is separate.

My legal advice since Friday has been exactly the same as it was then. This position must be carefully examined. The British have some reason for submitting it late. It was not drafted late. They had prepared the document and wanted to introduce it. I am assured that the new treaty will not remove anything from the charter as it concerns us. I am used to the British coming in with these late protocols and I would like to see how it might affect us and other countries in any judgment of the European Court of Justice. We will see what the outcome will be but I understand that it will not create a difficulty for us as of now.

I imagine that few countries will hold a referendum. Having removed the constitutional trappings from the treaty our colleagues will try to avoid holding a referendum. The French President made it clear in his election campaign that he would not put it to the people. The Dutch worked hard to arrive at that position but have not agreed on it yet. The Danes have not agreed a position. Most of the other countries, 20 or more, have no intention of having more than parliamentary ratification, as they have in most such issues.

Of the 19 countries that signed up only four held a referendum, while the other 15 had already secured parliamentary ratification of the constitution. Of the four who held a constitutional referendum, I do not think Luxembourg, France or Spain will hold another one. Very few countries will hold such a referendum.

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