Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

The normal agreements of recent years have led to a decline in the number of industrial disputes. The figure for last year was one of the lowest since the foundation of the State. There are always groups of workers who are not satisfied or do not believe their issues will be addressed in a way which they consider reasonable. It is inevitable such cases will arise from time to time. There was one group during the last round and there is one at present. Examinations were carried out on the claims of some smaller groups and the system was able to gather them in and deal with them. I cannot recall the exact number but a small number of cases were dealt with. The arrangements are sufficiently flexible to deal with such situations. The benchmarking process depends on the strength and presentation of the case and the history of the area. All of the groups preparing for benchmarking are making their own cases. The process is not the same as the old one involving relativities and knock-on claims which started at point A and went all the way through to everybody in the system. That is what has happened over the past 30 or 40 years in one form or another.

There are certain difficulties in specific disputes. In the case of the nurses dispute, we cannot contemplate an outcome which undermines public service pay policy based on benchmarking and the wider agreements under social partnership. However, progress can be made in the context of hours of work and higher productivity on a cost neutral basis. While it will not necessarily be easy to do that, a great deal of work has been done on the matter over the past few weeks. I understand that further work will be required to establish how a reduction of working time and a full deployment of improvements in efficiencies can be produced given that it involves 7.7 million working hours in the system.

I accept Deputy Kenny's point that we require a framework in which change can happen. In this case, we have been talking about managing change in the health service but there are other areas. I agreed earlier in the year to a proposal from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to establish a forum within which a more comprehensive approach to the management of change could be discussed. Most of the issues which arise do so in the context of the change agenda and are not simply normal cases. There are always difficulties in the change agenda. Almost all categories of staff working in the health service interact with others and change in any one grade or profession impacts on the others. We could produce a more coherent approach by examining all of the interdependencies involved in the round. We have had useful discussions with congress on that point.

The forum has been convened for two meetings under the chairmanship of the Secretary General of my Department and all of the health trade unions and representative bodies have participated together with the HSE and the Department of Health and Children. It would be better for them in the context of the forum's work if there was not an ongoing work to rule. However, one cannot plan these things perfectly. While the forum is at an early stage, I am hopeful that honest discussion in the context of a shared commitment to patients and the quality of the public health service will enable us to address even intractable problems. No problem is insurmountable, but we must find greater efficiencies to benefit staff and patients alike. I have therefore accepted the congress proposal and I am working to implement it in the broad range of cases. As Deputy Kenny said, the NIB is working on the nursing dispute to try to find a solution.

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