Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)

I have a different approach from the Minister. It is not the job of the judges to provide a database any more than it is their job to provide a courthouse. It is the job of the Executive and the Oireachtas to provide the means by which the judges do their job. One of those means is the provision of courthouses, the other is the provision of databases or registers of sentences, which is what I propose in this amendment. I accept that the judges should have an input and that the Denham committee can have an input, but it is not up to that committee to supply a database or a register of sentences. It does not have the resources to do so. That is a matter for the Executive.

I do not approve of open criticism of judges, some of which I have heard from the Minister. It might be populist but it is improper. That is not to say that judges should not be answerable for their role. It is for that reason I support the establishment of a judicial council. It has not yet been established, but it will be. I followed the proceedings of the Curtin committee and have no doubt about the need for such a council. However, that is another day's work. I am talking about all this in the context of consistency of sentencing. I also firmly believe it is the one area which really undermines public confidence in our criminal justice and judicial system. This is something about which we must be absolutely careful. It is also something for which we have an answer, but the answer lies with us, be it the Executive or the Oireachtas.

The Minister mentioned the role of the DPP. The DPP has a role, but we cannot expect him to go beyond the role we have given him, which is provided for in legislation, except in one respect. We have given the DPP a role from the point of view of appealing on the grounds of leniency in certain circumstances. I envisage that if we have consistency of sentencing, this role would only be used in very limited circumstances. The one additional role I want to see the DPP play is in respect of sentencing. Whatever about the Bar Council, whose guidelines in respect of the prosecution approach to sentencing are wrong, the DPP should arrange in every case to make a plea in prosecution if he considers it appropriate, without being asked by the judge, which is the current situation. I am not talking about the DPP demanding 20 years, as they do under continental courts. Rather, he should point out particular issues which are of an aggravating nature and which would be at the higher end of the guidance I wish to come to next.

It is mainly the job of the Executive, but with the support of the Oireachtas, to establish guidelines, as other common law countries have done. This is our job from the point of view of trying to ensure this consistency. We should establish the tariffs and guidelines. This is what happens in other countries so why do we not do it?

The public has an interest from the point of view of ensuring, as far as possible, that hardened criminals are sent away. That is its main interest. I saw the RTE programme on the matter and like everybody else, I would not like to be judged by the panel in respect of a sentence. It was a cross-section of opinion. They want hardened criminals to get tough sentences.

How do we achieve that and how do we achieve fairness and consistency? I very much push the approach about which I am talking, beginning with this amendment and the register of sentences, and following it with pleas at the sentencing hearing, particularly from the DPP, guidelines and an explanation from the judge if he or she goes outside the tariffs or guidelines.

The other point where I differ somewhat from the Minister is in respect of judicial training. Everybody needs training, not just animals in the zoo. Anybody who wants to do a job properly needs ongoing training. We have it in the Law Society from the point of view of continuing training. I imagine it exists at the Bar, but I am not as sure. Everybody needs to continually upgrade their skills and keep in touch with changes.

Again, we have a role here. I am all for judges having meetings, including, on occasion, those in pleasant surroundings. I have no problem with that, but, again, it is for the Executive and the Oireachtas to ensure proper facilities are available from the point of view of judicial training. It exists in other countries so why does it not exist here on a formalised basis?

I accept the criticism in respect of the way in which my amendment is drafted. The Minister effectively suggests that my amendment and I are too perfect. I plead guilty. I have been too prescriptive in respect of amendment No. 66.

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