Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

I will try to explain the issue briefly. The current dispute has nothing to do with the benchmarking process whatever. Effectively, the dispute is about two issues, namely the agreement on a 35-hour week from an early date and the elimination of a pay anomaly as a result of a series of pay adjustments for nurses and midwives who are paid less that assistant house parents despite having higher professional qualifications and responsibility, including responsibility for assistant house parents.

The Labour Court examined the issues in dispute and said the best way of dealing with them was through the benchmarking process. The nurses unions, the INO and the PNA, have given consideration to those issues. On the reduced hours, the management side's position is that a timeframe for a reduction in the hours could not be set without first carrying out a detailed risk assessment which would have to include the involvement of the relevant stakeholders. Management has no objection in principle to reduced hours but cannot give a definitive commitment as to the pace and the scale of reduction without more careful consideration. I have said many times that I acknowledge that the nurses unions are prepared to try to make this cost neutral but the management side or the Government, and the taxpayer, cannot go into that unless the work is done. The Government management side would say let us do the work and see if this can be cost neutral but the union side asked when it would be completed and said they would then enter into it. A reduction to a 35-hour working week effectively means about 30 extra days off for each of the individual 40,000 nurses, which would represent a massive change in working arrangements. It might be possible — I am not saying it is not possible — but the work needs to be done on it. Some work has been done on it but not a lot. It involves a reduction of 7.7 million nursing hours so it cannot be undertaken lightly. It has nothing to do with benchmarking.

While the pay anomaly should be a simpler issue the management side is prepared to regrade the particular nursing personnel who have responsibility for supervising staff with salaries in excess of the staff nurse scale. They contend, however, that the more general issue of the appropriate rate for the staff nurse grade is a matter for the benchmarking body. If that is the case there are 44 or 45 people involved. The argument of the nurse leaders is that anomaly should be reflected for all 40,000 nurses. It is either an anomaly for the nurses midwives grade but it is certainly not an anomaly for 40,000 nurses.

In regard to what is on offer on the nurses side in respect of the reduced working hours, the management position in line with the recommendation of the Labour Court is that it is prepared to address the changes in the organisation, the management and the delivery of health care which it could facilitate and a reduction in the standard working hours for nurses and midwives. That can be negotiated through the benchmarking body or wherever. The issue is not where it should be done, it can be done anywhere. Last week the NIB was trying to find a basis on which to move it on. We are trying to find a basis were it could move it on. We are still prepared to try it or any other mechanism, it does not have to be done through the benchmarking process.

On the issue of the pay anomaly the Labour Court said that issue should be dealt with through benchmarking. The management side is prepared to regrade the particular nursing personnel who have responsibility in excess of the nurse grade so as to remove the particular anomaly. On the more general point of a 10.6% increase for all nurses, this is a matter for the benchmarking body. It is due to start to report later this year. Other nursing trade unions have already made submissions in this regard. I should point out that the 10.6% pay claim is in addition to the 10% currently available in return for signing up to Towards 2016. The last point, one I made earlier to Deputy Kenny, is that the terms of reference and the criteria for the next benchmarking round have already been agreed with the unions, including SIPTU which has a large number of nurses unions. It is not an inflexible system, it is one that has already been negotiated with the trade unions and everyone knows the rules of the process.

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