John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I considered the Bill in detail earlier in light of last night's debate and, while it is thought provoking, I do not support it. The explanatory memorandum states:

Public bodies are an essential feature of governance in Ireland and important decisions affecting the lives of people are taken by individuals appointed to the boards of these bodies. The present procedures for appointing board chairpersons and members are diverse and badly defined. This has the potential of giving elite groups a monopoly of such positions and therefore an inordinate degree of influence on decision making. Renewed public confidence is required in the integrity of procedures and there is a need to eradicate any element of patronage. This Bill seeks to establish an independent merit based appointment system, through a new institutional framework which will allow for a systematic and transparent process of selection and appointments. This will ultimately enhance accountability and rigor in these bodies.

While there is merit in what Deputy Boyle is trying to achieve, the processes outlined in the Bill will not achieve what he wants. Last night he stated:

The overwhelming majority of those selected to serve on State bodies are individuals of ability who contribute out of a sense of public spiritedness. However, we must make a distinction between the people who are chosen and the methods used to select them.

The Deputy is correct that most of those appointed to State bodies are individuals of ability and my concern is if the Bill is adopted, those people who are targeted currently would not be attracted because of the bureaucracy and recruitment competitions proposed. In corporate Ireland, when large companies recruit board members, people are head hunted based on ability, talent and expertise. Many of the individuals serving on State bodies would not respond to the procedures envisaged in the legislation.

One of the strengths of the present system is that Ministers can approach those they consider to have the qualities necessary to serve on the boards for which they are responsible. Many men and women on State boards have vast experience in business or other relevant areas of public life and they have willingly accepted their positions out of a sense of public duty. I doubt many of them would go through the process envisaged in the legislation. Such an approach would be appropriate for recruiting employees but not directors and chairpersons of State bodies. There is a difference between full-time employment and the work done by the members of various boards. These individuals have ability but I am concerned that they would not respond to the procedures envisaged in the legislation.

The Deputy also stated in his contribution that, "The Bill proposes several simple measures that can help restore public confidence in the system". This suggests an absence of public confidence but I disagree. Many boards are respected and a substantial number operate effectively over a wide range of areas. The assertion that public confidence is lacking in all these boards does not stand up to the scrutiny.

The Deputy further stated:

It suggests that all public appointments to State bodies and agencies [...] should, in the first instance, be approved. We propose that an Oireachtas committee on appointments to public bodies be established.

However, this introduces another layer of bureaucracy. There are approximately 600 State bodies, many of whose boards comprise 12 members. More than 7,000 people, therefore, serve on these bodies and the Deputy proposes that they should be appointed through a recruitment competition overseen by a new Oireachtas joint committee. That would involve considerable work.

The Deputy seeks the establishment of the joint committee to carry out a review of all the procedures in place for the appointments of chairpersons and board members of existing bodies and to establish a list of such appointments, which should henceforth adhere to the new procedures. That involves significant work for many bodies. It removes from Ministers what should rightfully be their responsibility and introduces another layer of bureaucracy.

It is normal commercial practice for the shareholder to nominate people to the board to look after the shareholder's interest. In the case of commercial semi-State bodies, the Minister with the relevant financial responsibility for the area will nominate appointees to the board taking account of the type of company involved. Obviously, the Minister for Finance, as a shareholder or joint shareholder, is consulted on the nomination. This system is in place and works well.

I make this point because it could be construed from the introduction of this Bill that people who are appointed to boards are able to go about their business freely. However, it is worth mentioning that people who are appointed to boards do not have a free hand as there are strict rules and guidelines in place. As recently as 2001, the Minister for Finance issued the code of practice for the governance of State bodies. Its purpose was to provide a governance framework within which the internal management and internal and external reporting relationships of State bodies was to take place. It is important to realise this point because one could draw the inference from the Bill that one appoints people to State boards and so be it. However, nothing could be further from the truth as clear guidelines of codes of practice exist for the governance of such State bodies.

I wish to take issue with two points made by Deputy Gogarty during last night's debate. He stated:

The same would apply for any other State body such as those in the education field, for example. In the case of a number of Bills... which I have been involved [in] during [the] Government's term of office, the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, has been requested to allow certain bodies representation on a board and various education partners have been requested to be on the boards concerned because of their specific skill[s]. ... The Minister has always stated that she retains the right to appoint and she will weigh it up on balance. That is not good for democracy.

I fundamentally disagree with Deputy Gogarty as I believe this constitutes democracy at work. The Minister of the day makes the decision. Democracy has allowed that person to be elected to this House and subsequently to the office and that is our procedure of accountability. People are held accountable and the point made by Deputy Gogarty misrepresents and misunderstands the position. The State has accountability and democracy and the election of the Minister to this House in the first instance and subsequently to the position of Minister constitutes democracy at work.

Deputy Gogarty made a further point that was at a tangent or not relevant to the Bill and which was mistaken and regretful. He mentioned a number of people by name in respect of South Dublin County Council. While I will not repeat the names, he mentioned in particular a former councillor on South Dublin County Council who now works as an agent to a developer in the area. Deputy Gogarty stated:

These are all people trying to do their jobs in private enterprise and there should be no aspersions cast on their good character, but public bodies and public servants going to work in the private sector should be subject to some form of control.

While I do not disagree with his point, the area he raised last night is not relevant to or reflected in this Bill in any way. It was unfortunate that individuals' names were raised in the House last night in the context of this Bill, and it should not have happened. The Bill does not reflect the type of issue that Deputy Gogarty was trying to raise.

This matter was particularly unfortunate in the case of the former member of South Dublin County Council, who was a councillor for a considerable time. I understand he was first elected in 1991. In those days, the level of remuneration received by councillors was quite small and I know he had the same full-time job then as he does today. It was unfortunate that the matter was raised in the House, where he does not have an opportunity to defend himself. Moreover, it was not relevant to the Bill and on those grounds it was unfortunate that Deputy Gogarty raised it.

While I found the Bill interesting, it will not achieve Deputy Boyle's intended objectives. The procedures add nothing but another layer of bureaucracy and those with expertise, ability and talent, who one tries to draw into such bodies and boards, will not respond to the type of public advertisement and recruitment procedures this Bill tries to set out. In that regard, I regret I will be unable to support the Bill.

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