Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)

I am glad to have an opportunity to speak on the Bill, on which varying views have been expressed. I was a Member in 1994 when the House sat all night to discuss a Criminal Justice Bill which had caused grave concern in some quarters. I shared this concern, believing that some of the proposed measures might impinge on innocent people who are often the losers in these circumstances. Even ten years ago, I would have been reluctant to support this type of legislation. The situation has gone so far off the rails, however, that the rights of ordinary citizens are being impinged upon and interfered with on a daily and nightly basis to such an extent that the law-abiding public has little or no rights. As Deputy Burton observed, it is sad that zero tolerance apparently means zero convictions, despite the increasing incidence of crime.

A detachment is developing between the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and responsibility for ensuring justice is available to people and that law and order are observed. Replies from the Minister to parliamentary questions often begin with the words "I am informed by the Garda authorities....." The Minister should be able to report to the House of Parliament on issues relevant to his Department's remit. He should take responsibility for what is happening. That is not the case, however.

Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the last ten years have ducked and dived, bobbed and weaved to escape their responsibilities. They made it clear they had no intention of taking responsibility for crime. Anyone who challenged them on this was asked whether it was proper for the Minister to interfere in the operations of the Garda. We all know well the difference between interference and ensuring justice is seen to be administered on a consistent basis.

A ridiculous situation has developed whereby crime has become popular. A certain celebrity status has attached to hardened criminals who show contempt for society and the law and who live freely on their ill-gotten gains, often in exotic destinations abroad. It is apparently impossible to bring them home and charge them with their crimes. I cannot understand why this is allowed to continue. How often have we seen offenders emerge from court and give the victory sign to the cameras? They are effectively giving this sign to society, the Garda and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is appalling that we should witness this on a regular basis and that some of these people are national celebrities.

When will the penny drop? When will the Minister recognise it is time to call a halt to this nonsense? How often have we seen hardened organised criminal gang members charged with serious crimes, including shooting, beating and robbery with violence, sniggering and laughing in court as they are granted bail? Many of them go on to commit further crimes while on bail, sometimes more than once, and may receive free legal aid. It is no wonder they give the finger to society.

It is not enough merely to talk about this issue. The greatest talker of all is the Minister, who has condemned acts of violence as though he were an Opposition Member. The reality, however, is that he has ultimate responsibility. I do not understand how this situation has come about and what the outcome may be. Is it any wonder that citizens cannot countenance what is happening and are of the view that nobody cares? Extraordinary decisions are regularly made in court whereby offenders are either allowed either to go free or receive sentences that raise serious questions about what they were doing in court in the first place.

All of these factors beg the question whether any notice is being taken of what is happening to our society. Those charged with responsibility must take charge in this regard, and ultimate responsibility rests with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Where a person is convicted of a serious violent crime against the person — which is a crime against humanity and society — there should be no accommodation of ridiculous arguments to the effect that the full circumstances were not known. Have victims no rights? Society lets itself down when such offenders walk free. Those charged with the responsibility of protecting society, at whatever level, have failed in their duty and are guilty of serious dereliction in the discharge of their offices. Can we continue to ignore this reality?

We hear on a regular basis that a person who has been tragically killed in gang related violence was "known to the Garda". This is what used to happen in Chicago in the 1930s. The theory then was that the various criminal gangs would wipe each other out and society would be safe once more. That theory proved to be entirely wrong. The same is happening here on a daily basis. No matter what way we turn, Members on all sides of the House will be asked what is being done to protect the rights and entitlements of innocent citizens.

Reference was made to community policy and to the much vaunted promise, which helped the Government win the last election, of the recruitment of an additional 2,000 gardaí. We know what came of the latter commitment. In the period since the last election, we have seen a breakdown in law and order in many estates in urban areas, to such an extent that people retire behind locked doors as soon as they return home in the evening and are afraid to venture out thereafter. Many elderly people will not leave their homes under any circumstances in the evening, even in the summer when it is bright, because of their fear of being harassed by a crowd of gougers who wish to amuse themselves by upsetting other people. This is a sad reflection on our society and justice system.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has spent much time talking about these issues but has failed miserably to deliver. I am aware that in my constituency, as I am sure is the experience of all Members, a crowd of gougers descends regularly on a particular area, whether a local authority or private housing estate, the middle of the main street or anywhere else. Their business is to deliver drugs to the various carriers who arrive to meet them. Having sat in an open space, under trees or at the street corner and harassed anybody who passes, they set fire to vehicles, break windows or damage fences on their way home. These people go unpunished.

It seems zero tolerance means that time zero has been reached, beyond which there can be no tolerance. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform must clearly direct his attention at what must be done, which is to put all these people out of business. I put down a parliamentary question on this issue approximately one year ago. Of course, the information is always stale when we get it. I submitted a parliamentary question asking how much money had been taken in robberies in the previous 12 months and the reply stated that some €37 million had been stolen. Only €300,000 of that was recovered. Therefore, crime does pay. It has been paying well for a long time.

I am not directing my comments at the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, but at the two parties sharing Government for the past five years. They have thrown up their hands in horror and expressed concern at what is happening. The time for expressing concern is over and it is now time to tackle the problem. The reason the problem has grown to such an extent is that those involved in crime, in undermining society and in attacking the vulnerable have been getting away with their crimes. It has been lucrative to be involved in crime. One of the most fundamental ways to tackle crime is to make it clear to all that crime does not pay and that if they get involved in crime to make money, they will pay heavily for it.

Many contributors on this Bill have spoken about policing levels. It is appalling that we have not been able to ensure the public is adequately protected. The best way to protect the public is to get sufficient numbers of gardaí on the streets. We need to increase visibility and ensure gardaí are available.

This Bill tries to treat the problem after the event, which is the reason people are concerned. I hope the provisions in the Bill work successfully. We all know there are businesses in this city that have been the subject of extortion and threats of violence if they do not concur with suggestions for protection money. This is not Chicago we are talking about. This is happening in happy, peaceful Ireland. It has become a way of life. The reason is that some people took their eyes off the ball.

I am aware that under our Constitution a person is innocent until proven guilty and I have no problem with that. People are entitled to their rights. Unfortunately, however, this provision is being used by hardened criminals. They have driven a coach and four through the system and now show utter contempt for society. I submitted a question to the Minister recently regarding access to free legal aid for members of criminal gangs as I cannot believe they can avail of free legal aid. The Minister has not been able to respond to my question yet. He said it is a matter for the courts in the first instance, but when asked whether he provided funding for the Courts Service, the answer was to issue to me. However, it has not turned up yet.

My information is that such gangs have ready access to free legal aid. The alarm bells should have rung long ago in this regard. Why does the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform not ring somebody and demand to know what is going on with regard to free legal aid? He should know if this is happening and let us know. He should not be ashamed to come into the House and tell us. That is his responsibility. He should not shirk responsibility and duck, bob and weave his way out of it for fear the media may get a hold of it.

I would like to have more time to deal with other issues. I hope the legislation does the job it is supposed to do. I also hope that whatever Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform sits in the next Government will recognised the necessity to take full responsibility for ensuring that law and order are visibly enforced on the streets on a 24-hour basis.

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