Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)

I am glad to see the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, attending the House. I wish more Ministers would be accountable to the Dáil and explain their actions here. In fact, however, Ministers regularly hide behind written replies and civil servants, but will not answer oral questions. Whether we agree with the Minister of State, at least he has put his point of view and Members can cross examine him and make their own points.

I want to discuss social welfare officers. I am pleading with the Minister because this situation is not good for people who depend on such officers. Deputy Penrose asked earlier why one should fix something that is not broken. The system has worked well in the past but what is being proposed is not good for the people. Some aspects of social welfare work well, while others work badly but officials must live by the book. Community welfare officers cannot just live by the books; they need to have a conscience in order that when a problem arises they can make a decision there and then. The Minister knows what will happen. He will have his civil servants drafting rules and regulations. We know that a great deal of money is being spent on those who can only live from day to day. I listen to many people, including backbenchers, Ministers, local people and commentators. Many commentators do not understand how people live on welfare. Such people have to exist on a small amount of social welfare but are not able to manage from week to week.

If some people got €300,000 per week they would spend more than that because they cannot live within their means. A safety valve is needed for them. The Minister may say that the safety valve will be left to the community welfare officers but it will not. The Minister has been in the House longer than I have. He has seen Ministers come and go. He knows that the civil servants will be drawing up rules and regulations, and will tell the community welfare officers "You must live within this rule or regulation, and there will be no discretion". There will be discretion for a few months before polling day, but once the election is over the Minister or his successor will sign the regulation into law so that community welfare officers no longer have any discretion. This should not be allowed to happen.

If Fianna Fáil backbenchers had any courage they would vote down this amendment because it is not good for their constituents. Why do they always have to be led by Ministers and civil servants? This measure is morally wrong and I ask the Minister to accept the amendment. He should discuss it with the community welfare officers and operate it on a trial basis in some areas for a few months to see how it works. What is being proposed in the Bill will not work, however, so the next Government will have to revert to the old arrangement. Whose premises will community welfare officers use? Will they use HSE premises or will they be sent into towns to use social welfare offices? Will community welfare officers be used for means testing for carer's allowance and social welfare payments? Will they be brought into the system to deal with all of this? At least previously there was an element of discretion involved.

Some people hate social welfare offices because when they go there looking for work they are told they are not looking for work. Deputy Penrose has heard me raise this matter at committee level week in, week out. I know people who must leave social welfare offices and approach community welfare officers for money because the Minister's officials tell them they are not actively seeking work, despite there being no work in many of these areas.

I ask the Minister to ignore the civil servants on this occasion and accept this amendment. The situation as it is works and should be left alone; the Minister should refrain from targeting the poor and letting them down.

In the Dáil this morning I heard of civil servants being paid large wages by the HSE. Where did the HSE get this money? It saved €2.5 million in my region by not bringing the poor and sick to hospital for appointments. As I said last week, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, refuses to bring the poor and sick to hospital for appointments while the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, seeks to set up transport to bring them to the pub. Are we not a sick country? Once again the weak and sick are targeted.

I ask the Minister to accept this amendment and choose not to go ahead with this as nobody, neither the public nor the community welfare officers, wants it. Things are working as they are and should not be interfered with.

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