Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 15, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

9.—In any investigation under section 8—

(a) the report of the investigation shall be absolutely privileged,

(b) due process and fair procedures shall be observed,

(c) any person called to give evidence, shall be allowed legal representation if he or she so requests, and there shall be a duty on any person conducting an investigation to inform such a person of his or her right in that respect, and

(d) there shall be a duty of cooperation on any member of staff of the service provider save where such a person receives legal advice to the contrary.".

In the earlier debate on the amendment to this Bill I asked the Minister of State to explain whether it covered certain examples, such as the two midwives from Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital. This legislation does not protect them but they are covered under other legislation which provides for client privilege which entitles someone to make a complaint to a solicitor who protects his clients if he passes the complaint on to an authority such as the former health board. Had the two midwives in question approached anyone outside the mythical chain of command that the Department has set up they would not have been protected. The Minister of State describes this structure as independent but we know it will be deeply involved with the Health Service Executive, HSE, in some form or other and will not be as independent as he thinks. It is always necessary to protect people. Each time I put these questions to him the Minister of State referred to the advice he was receiving to get himself out of the problem rather than state the situation.

I also raised the issue of a general practitioner trainer who might pass on his concern about one of those he was training to the HSE. The trainer would not be covered because he or she has no contract for training a GP. It might sound unbelievable to the Minister of State that 150 GPs are trained every year but there is no contract with the trainers. The legislation does not cover someone such as a consultant employed by Deloitte & Touche to examine PPARS who might express concerns about the system. This shows the deficiency in the whistleblowers amendment.

My amendment approaches the issue from the other side. Although we on this side of the House have always told the Government it needs to wake up and root out the poor nursing homes there is a serious need, which the Minister often does not realise, to protect natural justice because the HSE can and does abuse its position. At one time parents caring for foster children with autism expressed doubt that they could cope. The HSE did not send in psychologists, social workers or extra home helps, it sent in the A-Team to kick down the door and grab the children. In this way it can sometimes abuse its clout. This amendment aims to protect everybody's constitutional rights. We want to make sure that people being investigated are made fully aware of their legal rights so that we can always be sure of proceeding in the proper manner.

When this matter was raised on Committee Stage the Minister said she would consider this issue and respond to us.

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