Paul McGrath (Westmeath, Fine Gael)

I support the amendments. I echo the sentiments of many speakers present and many outside the House who are concerned at the haste with which this Bill is being put through. There is huge disappointment among those involved in the VEC system that commitments made by the Minister on this subject are not being followed through in the Bill. She promised she would institute a root and branch reform of section 29 but, while it goes a small way towards that, the Bill falls far short of the commitments given by the Minister.

I echo the points made by Deputy O'Sullivan on the difficulties in schools at the moment. There are major problems with disruptive and unruly students and others who may not be very disruptive but bully others and make ordinary children's lives very difficult. I recently came across a case of a little girl who started school last September. From day two she has had difficulties with a particular pupil who harasses and intimidates her to the extent that she has cried at school every day since then, a long time ago now. That is an appalling situation. To some extent the response seems to be to advise the girl to move to another school, instead of the bully. It is imperative we deal with those who are the cause of trouble, who interrupt the education of so many other children. This Bill will remedy the situation in part but many in the system would say it will make life even more difficult.

There are serious concerns that the powers being given to change dates and timescales in section 4 are excessive. Deputy O'Sullivan made reference to the fact that, in some areas, the vocational school was the destination for any child with whom other schools could not cope. That is not a fair way to allocate such children. There must be a system whereby they can be allocated across all schools and all schools must take responsibility for a variety of pupils. The situation should not arise where a child who cannot get in anywhere else must go to the vocational school.

The experience of the scheme among VECs across the country has been very negative. They are concerned at the willingness of both members of the appeals committee and officials of the Department of Education and Science to strictly apply procedural requirements to members of boards of management of VECs who are respondents to appeal cases, while patently failing to apply the same strictures to themselves. I will put on the record two examples. The appeals administration section of the Department of Education and Science gave advices to a VEC that it was in order to hold a particular decision over for a meeting of the committee for one extra day. Subsequently the same section of the Department of Education and Science decided that this advice was in error and used the very fact that the VEC had delayed by one day to admit an appeal against the same VEC in which the Department decided in favour of the appellant.

This legislation states there is to be a particular number of days in which to comply with procedures. It allows the Secretary General of the Department, however, to change the goalposts in respect of timescales to suit the Department. However, the VECs and other bodies must toe the line. Is that fair?

The second matter I wish to raise relates to the fact that the Department of Education and Science exceeded the statutory time limits and extensions set out in the 1998 Act. When the relevant VEC queried this, the response received was that the delay, which rendered the entire decision flawed and irregular, arose due to human error on the part of the Department. Therefore, human errors can occur in the Department and these can result in its not complying with the standards and regulations. However, if VECs miss deadlines, decisions will go against them. Which organisations are obliged to deal with these enormous difficulties on a daily basis and ensure that all pupils receive a fair standard of education? The answer is that VECs, local secondary schools, etc., are responsible for doing so. The Department wants to take the responsibility upon itself and shift the goalposts as it suits. It wants the other organisations to which I refer to comply with the relevant standards or be taken to task for not doing so. That is not good enough.

Did the Minister consider establishing an independent appeals board in respect of this matter? Would it not be worthwhile putting in place such an independent body because it could hear complaints in respect of schools taking in children and so on? Would such a body not be in a better position to hear such appeals? There is an extensive appeals system across the entire public service. The Ombudsman cannot deal with VECs because they do not come within her remit. There are appeals offices in the Departments of Social and Family Affairs and Agriculture and Food. Why not put in place an independent appeals system or a mechanism such as the Employment Appeals Tribunal to deal with complaints in this area? People could rest assured that an appeals body such as that to which I refer would examine complaints on an independent basis and build up a huge repertoire of expertise on foot of dealing with problems of this nature throughout the country. We would eventually develop a system that would be entirely fair and represent the best interests of all children.

Some VECs are of the view that the existing system is not geared towards natural justice. They also believe that, because they are State institutions, they are being subjected to heavy-handed treatment in respect of this matter.

I ask the Minister to take on board the points I have made. I am concerned about the undue haste with which this matter is being dealt. I am also concerned that the Minister did not live up to the commitments given to the VECs in respect of it. Will she consider, even at this late stage, the possibility of establishing an independent body to deal with such complaints that may arise in order that natural justice will eventually win out?

See this speech in context