Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

On the first point, the State had more freedom when it had fewer resources 20 years ago. As the Deputy will recall, some of the projects carried out during our political time here did not need planning and were completed through OPW special orders. That situation changed during the years for good reasons. The effect of this on projects and their assessment has been a dramatic improvement in procedures, particularly in terms of road construction. The quality of the NRA's staff, resources and the technical teams it has built during the past six or seven years is superb.

Regarding the schools building programme, we used to undertake six big projects at a time. This year there are 1,500, from A to Z. The equivalent figure 20 years ago was probably 30. It is a different issue and the design has been changed, that is, more standardised designs are being used.

Regarding health, the system presents a difficulty, about which there is no doubt. The time taken for a project to go through the various structures, assessments and processes and to be built and commissioned is very long. The matter has been examined and some improvements have been made. Has it improved dramatically? No, I do not think it has. It is a slow process for which there are various reasons and answers. As the Deputy stated, I turned the sod and opened a 500-bed hotel in the airport region, whereas a health project had passed through one stage before anyone turned a sod. Some projects I announced six or seven years ago have still not been finished, but that is part of the system. Can it be improved? I will not argue that it cannot. There are huge costs in the system.

Regarding the answers given on the issues raised, there is a big difference between a hotel and a highly sophisticated ward or theatre with its special flooring, tubing, suction, cardiology equipment and so on. Some 500 reasons are given before one starts as to why matters cannot be completed far more quickly. Can something be done more quickly? Yes. Can it be done more quickly under the current system? I doubt it. That there are so many hands involved presents a difficulty. If the Deputy was doing it, would he do it this way? He would not. There is a huge degree of bureaucracy around these matters. For every step forward, we take 16 backwards. That is the honest answer. It is not for lack of effort that the situation has not improved.

On the metro, a lot of progress has been made and the team's professionalism has been considerable. I have a lot of confidence in the team which has done a good job on the Luas extensions and brought in expertise in the form of individuals who have worked on similar projects in other countries. This country does not have that expertise, although some Irish people have worked on similar projects abroad and returned. It is a big project, but I have confidence in the team. It seems to have good time slots and movements and its procedures are based on modern legislation. It is making a lot of progress, particularly in terms of the Dublin transportation authority legislation. The authority is working on an ad hoc basis, which is fine, but it needs to be legislated for. The team comprises an efficient group which is going about its business in a professional way, judging by the briefings we have received.

On the outer route, the preliminary work is ongoing in the form of a feasibility study. The Deputy knows my position on the matter, namely, that I have been pressing for it within the group because it is necessary. The Deputy spoke about the M50, but if one examines the file on it — I have read it more than once for obvious reasons — one will see that planning for it began in 1950. The road was opened in 1990, based mainly on assessments made in 1978. The bridge was the last part. The system did not consider the M50 necessary or viable. The Department of Finance did not consider it viable or necessary while I was there.

Regarding the outer orbital route, we are effectively discussing a date of 2020, although the NRA could probably complete it far more quickly. We must forget the figures on the line and scale and build it to international standards, which I have made clear to the system. Trying to project figures is a lost cause. While Deputy Sargent will not like me for saying this, it is a fact that we are well under the EU average in terms of car usage.

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