Damien English (Meath, Fine Gael)

Yes, but I object to the way the Minister asked it. I appeal to her to keep an open mind on this.

Some Members expressed concerns that such a scheme might infringe pupils' rights. It is clearly a voluntary initiative. We want boards of management, teachers, parents and even pupils to sign up to it. It will not be forced on anybody. The Taoiseach cannot understand how such testing can be both voluntary and random. It is simple. When a school decides to implement this programme or another voluntary initiative, parents will be asked to sign up their children. Only those children whose parents have given permission will be subject to random tests. These children will have volunteered to be randomly tested. It seems too complicated for the Taoiseach to figure out but it is a simple process that could deliver good results.

The problem of alcohol and drugs availability in schools creates disciplinary problems and affects the health and welfare of young people. This problem is not confined to young people but is evident in all sections of society. A different initiative is required for each section. This is one solution that we hope will work in schools. Out intention is not to catch pupils out, name them as drug abusers or give them a criminal record. The objective of the scheme is two-fold. First, it offers young people a means of resisting pressure. We are all aware that students are under immense pressure to partake of alcohol and drugs. Alcohol is the greater problem but the incidence of drug use is increasing.

Students need a way to overcome serious peer pressure. We are all affected by peer pressure at different times in our lives. For young people, that pressure can manifest itself through the use of drugs and alcohol. Research shows that the possibility of being randomly tested on any given school day offers students a way out. When encouraged to use alcohol or drugs by their peers or others, they can opt out because of the possibility they will be tested in school the next day. It is a simple but effective solution.

The second advantage of a programme of voluntary random testing is that it will identify those students who are engaging in alcohol and drug abuse so that they can be admitted to treatment programmes, receive counselling and so on. This will give them a better chance in life. We on this side of the House will consider other initiatives because we owe it to young people to protect them and give them a way out from peer pressure and bullies. We have discussed this with boards of management, parents and students. Most of those who examine it carefully see it is a worthwhile initiative.

As the Minister observed, an important aspect of this is having somebody to carry out the testing. We propose that a drugs adviser, with expertise in this area, should be available to every school to give advice on this and other initiatives. Boards of management and teachers are not experts on all the issues that affect young people. They require guidance and support and it is the responsibility of the Government to provide that.

Most students say that alcohol use is rampant among their age group, particularly among younger secondary school children of 12, 13 and 14 years of age. As they get older, students can either handle alcohol better or become mature enough to refuse it. Children of 12, 13, and 14 years are vulnerable, however, and must be protected. Fine Gael's proposal is one way of offering that protection and it has a good chance of being successful. The drugs advisers will be able to work with schools on other initiatives that will not involve random testing but will be concerned, for instance, with encouraging students to engage in other activities that keep them away from alcohol and drugs.

I ask the Minister not to mock this proposal without thinking it through fully. Some Members have argued that implementing it would set us on the wrong road, reminiscent of schools in the Bronx. We wish to prevent our schools becoming like those schools. It is all about helping young people and trying to prevent them from engaging in abusive behaviour.

Drug and alcohol abuse among students contributes to the serious deterioration in discipline in schools. Difficulties in this regard are ongoing for several years. We debated a motion on this issue a year ago, at which time the Minister said we were overreacting and being alarmist and that there was no need for changes in this area. We are not being alarmist; the facts show that this is a serious problem. That is why we support this Bill as a step in the right direction in tackling the problem of lack of discipline in schools.

The Bill brings clarity to the situation. It is hoped it will make the appeals system more straightforward and ensure that more appeals are upheld. It also clearly sets out the rights of students in terms of the arguments they can make, and provides that there will be a thorough investigation before deciding whether schools have implemented their codes of behaviour correctly. Teachers can also engage in bullying behaviour and we must ensure systems are in place to identify such teachers. The provisions requiring that everything be investigated thoroughly on behalf of both students and teachers are welcome. This clear guidance for the appeals procedure is welcome and will help ensure that all parties have a fair say.

I have not fully read through the task force report, School Matters, but I will go through it with a fine-tooth comb. The national behaviour support service assessed the 124 schools which applied to it. I accept we cannot include every school but what was the criteria under which the schools were assessed? Some 50 schools were picked from the 124 which applied. Did the other schools miss out because of funding or because they did not need the service? Will the Minister give us some information on that? I accept every school cannot be included immediately but I would like to know if there were other reasons, apart from funding, schools were not included. I appreciate it is a start-up project and that every school cannot be included immediately.

The task force has valuable insights into strategies and approaches to deal with disruptive students. The National Educational Welfare Board is currently finalising its guidelines on developing and implementing effective codes of behaviour. I mentioned before in the House and at committee that we need stronger guidelines, codes of behaviour and disciplinary procedures for schools. There must be standards across the board. There should not be huge differences between schools in terms of codes of behaviour, breaches of discipline and so on. We need better guidance. Boards of management and schools are looking for clear guidelines to be set down. Indeed, a set of rules would go a long way in many schools.

Recently qualified teachers have told me they did not get enough training in class control, disciplinary procedures and so on and feel unequipped to deal with this issue in the classroom. We need to address that issue. The Minister will probably outline all she is doing but teachers have told me they do not believe they have the skills to handle disciplinary matters. Much of that has to do with the person but it also has to do with the procedures.

I do not believe the handbook student teachers receive when they leave college has a chapter on discipline. They should be given help and guidance in the area of discipline because it is a major problem for teachers. Teachers of all ages have said to us that they can no longer cope in the classroom. Some teachers are retiring early because they cannot handle the pressure of teaching. Other teachers spend all day trying to control the class and do not even get to teach. I have seen teachers in action and some have very bad methods to deal with discipline, which add to the problem. Other teachers are very effective. Surely we can learn from teachers who get it right and can control a class. Some teachers do not have the ability to do so and we must help them, give them guidelines and provide them with better training. One way or another, we must solve this problem.

Regardless of how good the teacher, there are problems with students who need help inside and outside the school environment. Help should be given from a very young age. My colleague spoke about the role of parents. Parents have an important role in ensuring their children are disciplined, mannerly and so on. However, that is lacking among many and we must do what we can to fix it. Parenting courses would go a long way towards helping that. Not every parent is perfect. Most parents have ups and downs and admit they do not always get it right. They would be quite happy to accept help and guidance along the way. However, some parents have to be forced to accept help and guidance.

We must seriously consider parenting courses for all parents because it is a difficult time to bring up young people and to have children given the pressures we face. It is hard to instill discipline in children, get them ready to become full members of society and to treat people with respect. We need to help parents and parenting courses are one way to do so. If one wants to adopt a child, one must do nearly 18 months of courses yet any couple can decide to have a child without doing a course. On many occasions we talk about education as a way to solve problems but we must accept we can take action to prepare children for school. We cannot expect teachers to solve every problem.

While this Bill mainly deals with long-term suspensions and expulsions from school, I refer to short-term suspensions. Perhaps I am wrong but I believe short-term suspensions are dished out too quickly and, therefore, lose their effect. If they are given out all the time, they have no effect, especially if given out for minor breaches of discipline. One loses a tool one could use at a later stage for a worse breach of discipline. It is unfair on some students who get suspended for a couple of days for the wrong reasons. For some families, having a child suspended is still a big embarrassment and can cause serious problems. It is not simply a couple of days off school and no big deal. It is a big deal and it goes on the student's record. The boards will bring forward codes of discipline and I look forward to debating them. We have a serious problem with discipline which we must tackle in any way we can.

Youthreach was mentioned earlier. It does a very good job but it has not been mainstreamed. It is located in parts of buildings or wherever it can get some space. If we accept Youthreach has done a good job, surely we can give it proper places to hold classes and treat it with the respect to which it is entitled. It is doing a very good job and some students are getting a great chance, which they are taking. We need to help and encourage these students and provide them with a proper environment in which to attend school. One's environment has a big impact. If classes are too big, classrooms become crowded, especially if there are computers in the room. It is very hard to work in such an environment and for the teacher to try to control a class. Progress is being made to reduce class sizes but we must realise we are not moving fast enough in some areas.

Prefabs and poor buildings result in young people having a negative attitude towards their environment. If one is being taught in a prefab, which is 20 years old and which would fall apart if one kicked it, one would not have much respect for it and for those who work in it. We would not work in poor conditions, so we should not expect students to do so. We should demand and expect better for young people so they will feel better in their classrooms. That alone would help discipline. A range of initiatives should be taken.

Disruptive students cannot be corrected in school alone. There must be more for them outside the school, namely, in their homes and communities. Our society has become busier and richer but we have forgotten to look after young people in their communities. We have not provided them with the facilities they need. Despite the millions of euro spent in recent years, we need to do more and provide new initiatives, programmes and structures for young people of all ages in villages, towns and cities to give them a chance, places to go for support and to meet so they do not hang around streets and bad places where they will get into trouble. If young people have excess energy, there is a good chance they will do something wrong in school or outside it. If we keep young people busy, give them plenty to do and provide them with help and support, there is a good chance they will not cause major problems in school or elsewhere. However, we are failing to do that. I do not blame anybody or any Government for that. We have failed to act over a number of years as this country has developed. Young people are always the last group on which money is spent in terms of council budgets, etc. It is necessary to provide young people with facilities.

Students are under much pressure and we spoke earlier about peer pressure in the context of drink and drugs. Addressing that issue will involve drugs advisers, medical personnel and others who will help with random testing, etc. Students are under other pressures, whether in terms of fashion, religion or otherwise. They are also under pressure as a result of the workload placed on them. Are we expecting too much from some students as they go through their school years? They do a full day at school and when they go home, they do another four or five hours study or homework. Few people in the workforce would work the same number of hours as students. Some students doss as do some adults, Deputies and Ministers. However, many students are under pressure to work many hours to try to get the results they need to climb the ladder in life. We must look at that situation. We ask too much of our young people today. The education system has served us well over the years but there has to be a way to relieve the pressure on young people. While many of their problems are examples of indiscipline and bad behaviour, others are tragic. The pressures of society, examinations and workloads in school contribute to that situation.

The Bill is relatively small but the lives of students are of great significance and we do not devote enough time to them. They are not properly looked after. There is a responsibility on all of us to push their agenda and help as much as we can.

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