Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)

Deputy Stanton is aware that we increased the number of units that pensioners could avail of for electricity and gas, beginning in October in the case of gas and January in the case of electricity. This move will protect pensioners against the recent increases in electricity and gas prices and is a positive step.

I agree with Deputy Penrose's comments about encouraging people to make greater use of credit unions. They are fine institutions with a very good history and wonderful integrity and I encourage people to look to them rather than to moneylenders, even those which are legal.

Deputy Stanton asked me my views about the 10,075 new people who approached MABS this year. The majority of these clients were aged between 26 and 40. They were mainly single people or single parents with children. Just over 50% of them were in receipt of a social welfare payment and 30%, or just under 3,000, were working. A high percentage of people — 70% — had no second income coming into the household. Most people had approached MABS of their own accord. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, the average personal debt is €6,000.

The Deputy's question regarding why so many people still need support or are borrowing money if we are doing so well is a good one. One could also ask why debt everywhere is increasing if the country in general is doing so well. Everyone acknowledges that the country is powering ahead. There should be no debt in the country, we should all be able to pay off our debts, if we are doing so well, but the reality is that whatever level of society or income one is at, one has commitments to meet and bills to pay. One's expectations also increase. The credit that was dealt with 20 years ago was secured to pay routine bills like electricity, gas, coal and food. By and large, the situation today is nothing like that. Some of the figures I have seen and the figures I have just quoted relate to credit card bills and loans for cars, motorcycles, bicycles and short holidays, all of which are legitimate, but people's expectations have risen.

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