Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

It could be made a criminal offence but it will have to be worked out. The bottom line is that there must be some penalty. It will have to be examined.

We discussed the first issue previously. The point made by the Standards in Public Office Commission is that civil servants should not be used in a political fashion, but that the age old tradition of civil servants being able to brief Members of the Oireachtas, or a group of Members of the Oireachtas of any party, who were engaged in the preparation or examination of a technically complex Bill, which is the case with many Bills, would be greatly beneficial.

A civil servant could have worked on a Bill for six or seven years. I brought in the Industrial Relations Act 1990. The Bill had been a live one in the Department for 23 years. I recall at the time that numerous briefings were given to Members of this House, trade unions, employers' groups and chambers of commerce. To expect any Member of the House to grasp incredibly technical Bills — I have brought in health and safety Bills and other Bills — is nonsense. To say that Members should not gain the benefit of someone who is an expert, has studied the matter inside and out, knows the section and would be able to brief people would be a nonsense. Having a civil servant march into a meeting of an entire parliamentary party meeting and engage with it is a different matter.

It has always been the practice that parliamentary party-nominated groups or subgroups examine Bills. Governments have always made officials available if emergency legislation is introduced or a loophole must be closed because of a European judgment. That is an appropriate way to conduct business. To breach that practice would be wrong and would damage the House.

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