Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on Second Stage of the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill 2005. As Deputy Carey said, it is important that we should have a debate on this matter. Like many fair-minded people, however, I will take a different position from the Deputy on the details of the legislation. It is important for us to have a balanced debate and for Members to propose sensible ideas and solutions about crime, particularly international crime.

Many citizens and residents of this State have significant concerns about what is going on in this country at present. They are worried about crime, cocaine and shootings on our streets. A constituent of mine, Ms Donna Cleary, was shot dead as a direct result of the drugs war on the north side of Dublin. In recent days, people have been kidnapped and held hostage while money was taken from banks in my constituency. It is all very well for some people, like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to take the high moral ground when speaking about the victims of these crimes, such as the staff of banks and their families. I commend the staff of the bank in Killester, in particular, on the tough decisions they took in the interests of public safety. They were hounded by certain Ministers and senior police officers in the days after the raid on that bank. The key issue for many of the families in question is that nobody died and the other issues can be resolved at a future stage. I commend the staff in Killester on their bravery and integrity in prioritising the human rights of our citizens.

It is important to reflect on issues of international law as part of this debate. It seems that international law is completely out of control at present. Human rights are being abused by rogue states and presidents of so-called "free democracies", who are making things worse. The pendulum has gone the other way — the international community has gone crazy. We see nothing but abuse of human rights, rather than respect for them. This is an important aspect of the debate on crime and the criminal justice system. It is wrong that some elements of the right wing press in certain countries think that human rights and civil liberties are dirty words. Those who do not understand that respect for human rights and civil liberties is an important part of our criminal justice system are making a fundamental mistake. That is the line I will be taking in respect of this Bill.

I have major concerns about some international states. I spoke recently about the record of the United States on civil liberties and human rights. The Minister for Foreign Affairs should hammer home this point on behalf of the Government at every international meeting. We should not be afraid. We should have the bottle to side with other countries, particularly poorer countries, at United Nations level. It is important for Ireland to work with other countries to promote international peace, to prevent the recurrence of circumstances like those in Darfur, to co-operate on the various important issues and to deal with the drug barons. We should work with the poorer countries which need assistance, in particular. We need to treat them with respect and dignity, but that is not happening at present. Some of the so-called free democracies of the West are treating such countries with a lack of respect and dignity.

I would like to highlight another aspect of this debate. It is all very well to deal with the issue of mutual assistance on matters of criminal justice, as we are doing today, but we also need to be tough on the causes of crime. Any Government, or any Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that does not wake up and smell the coffee by being tough on the causes of crime needs to get a reality check. It is unacceptable, in a very wealthy country, that everyone is looking the other way while communities are suffering massive and total social exclusion and major economic and social disadvantage. We need to look at resources. The excuse of not having resources is gone. The debate on resources must now centre on how we distribute them to the communities concerned. The poor, working class areas that need investment, housing and social inclusion policies must be the priority in this debate. This is an important element in tackling crime. The education system is another key and strategic element. If young people, particularly those excluded from society, are assisted in their education, it will lead to a positive input in their lives and, in turn, prevent much crime.

In tackling crime, we must face the reality that we need more judges. Preliminary hearings should be held to shorten trials. I want the establishment of a dedicated witness-victim-family liaison officer scheme. Why can the courts not operate from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.? A new criminal court complex for Dublin should be designed to segregate key players such as judges, witnesses, jury members, defendants and gardaí. Most disadvantaged schools must be targeted with extra resources, particularly counselling and family therapy sessions. I welcome the massive investment by Chuck Feeney, the Irish-American multimillionaire, in Dublin's northside. He is working closely with the Department of Education and Science in targeting these resources. I commend him and his organisation for the magnificent work they have done.

We must face the reality that violent and disruptive young people require counselling and family therapy sessions. These are the young people who will end up in Mountjoy Prison in the future if they are not attended to at a young age. On a practical level, more community gardaí on the beat, talking and working with the people in reducing fear of crime are needed. I support the development of Operation Anvil against armed gangs. Some of those in the criminal drugs world can only be dealt with through such operations. At the same time community gardaí are needed on the streets to prevent crime and deal with major issues.

The purpose of the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill is to give effect to provisions in seven mutual legal assistance instruments. These are the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between the member states of the European Union, the Second Additional Protocol to the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters; the mutual legal assistance aspects of the Council Decision concerning the signature of an agreement between the European Union and the United States of America on extradition and mutual legal assistance in criminal matters; the Council Framework Decision of 22 July 2003 on the execution in the European Union of orders freezing property or evidence; the agreement between the EU and the Republic of Iceland and the Kingdom of Norway on the application of certain provisions of the 2000 Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters and the 2001 Protocol.

The new main forms of mutual assistance provided for in the Bill include the provision of financial information to other states for criminal investigation purposes regarding transactions on bank accounts and the monitoring of such accounts. Mutual assistance will also provide for assistance in accordance with national law on the interception of telecommunications in the context of criminal investigation in EU member states and the hearing of witnesses and experts in other countries by video or telephone conference. This co-operation will allow us to deal with serious criminal matters.

A constant problem I encounter in my clinics is the number of assaults and attacks on people and communities suffering from anti-social and intimidatory behaviour that go unreported. Anti-social behaviour is particularly relevant with young people aged 16 to 22 years. Recently in my area, a group of women in a flats complex cleaned the stairways of dirt and syringes. The following night they were intimidated by some gangs in the area. It is unacceptable. Those who clean up their complexes must be supported by the Garda and politicians. This is not just a political issue but a human rights one. It is about the human rights of the women in the Dublin North-Central constituency who have the bottle and courage to clean their stairways yet are intimidated by thugs involved in the drugs trade.

We need quality police officers who are honest and have the trust of their local communities. They must be seen to be in the community. I challenge senior Garda management, the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Ministers of State on this. In an eight hour shift, how many hours do gardaí spend in the community, walking the streets? They should be there for at least six hours. One cannot blame younger gardaí if they are not in the communities they serve. A culture is in place that must be tackled by management. Many young men and women join the Garda with a vision of helping their communities. Years into the job, they become cynical. This concerns me and every Member is aware of this situation.

Honest and quality policing is needed to tackle crime. An example of good practice is where the community garda goes into certain areas at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night preventing assaults at chippers and pubs. These are the gardaí who should be rewarded rather than the garda who is someone's hack in the job. More respect must be shown to those community gardaí who prevent crime. It is often said that it is not a good career move for a garda to be involved in the community, helping drug addicts and working with the health services. It is better to be involved in the sexy sections of the garda. I reject this because many community gardaí do much to prevent crime.

There must be an emphasis on honesty, integrity and the trust of a community. A garda cannot simply expect a community to respect or trust him or her. If he or she is serious, that respect and trust must be earned. I know that from working in Dublin's north inner city for 20 years. The excellent gardaí, particularly those involved in the drugs squad, did not expect but earned the respect and support of the communities involved. They turned around situations where there was cynicism and mistrust. This approach is needed across the State.

Bad police practice needs to be tackled. On the night before the All-Ireland football final, a group of young women walking down O'Connell Street were intimidated by another group of young women with a knife, apparently high on drugs. Fortunately, the women in the first group talked their way out of the situation. When they rang the Garda, they were asked "what could the Garda do about it?" They could not locate a garda on O'Connell Street. One must question the competence of Garda management when, on the Saturday night before an all-Ireland final, young women are threatened with knives and there is no Garda back-up.

It leads to a loss of confidence in the force when one hears stories such as this. Garda management must wake up and smell the coffee, get its act together and deliver the necessary services. It can no longer hide behind the numbers game because there are more gardaí than ever before in the history of the State. What are the managers, including the Commissioner, doing? These are fundamental questions. The Garda must move beyond claiming its hands are tied. That is utter rubbish. One does the job to the best of one's ability whether one is a garda, fire officer, teacher, medical worker and so on.

The Bill provides for the mutual recognition and enforcement of orders for freezing property based on evidence from other EU member states, obtaining identification evidence for criminal investigations both inside and outside the State, and the establishment of joint investigation teams in co-operation with the United States of America. I have already mentioned my concerns about the human rights record of that country. Co-operation is essential but we must be careful about working with persons who have no respect for human rights.

The Bill includes provision of a legal basis for the restitution of articles obtained by criminal means to their rightful owner and for controlled deliveries in the State and participation in such deliveries in other EU and Council of Europe member states. Provision is made in section 11 for the specification of different versions of a person's name when information about financial transactions is sought from a financial institution on the basis that it is not reasonable to expect the institution to be aware of variants of a name.

A new section 28 has been inserted to provide for the interception of postal packets and telecommunications messages. The Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications Messages (Regulation) Act 1993 applies to interception orders made under the Bill, including the provision of that Act for review by the High Court of interception orders, including related documents.

Section 87 has been amended to provide for specific regulations to give effect to an international instrument to be made under the provisions of this Bill. This has been included on the advice of the Attorney General following a Supreme Court decision that a standard regulation making provision in an Act is not sufficient to make regulations giving effect to international instruments.

These are the technical details of the legislation. It is clear there are sections in the Bill that will strongly further facilitate the detection and prosecution of those responsible for transnational crime. I agree with this simple objective but I have also pointed out the flaws.

It is important that we wake up to reality by rejecting the common false perception that legislation will solve the crime problem. That is not the case. We must remind ourselves that legislation without action will not resolve the problem. Some people in this House and others outside it seem to be obsessed with the notion that legislation will resolve everything. Legislation is only a small, albeit important, tool in the fight against crime.

The main issue is the necessity to deal with the causes of crime by facilitating and supporting those potentially at risk from a young age. There must be economic investment in deprived areas. There is no reason for it and it is unacceptable that there should be parts of Dublin, Cork, Limerick or Galway where people on one side of the road live in four bedroom houses with nice gardens and whose children go happily to school every day while only 500 metres away, families live in conditions of severe economic and social deprivation.

We are deceiving ourselves if we believe it is adequate to debate crime legislation while ignoring the debate on our divided society. We will get nowhere by doing that. It is members of the poorest and weakest sections of society who end up in Mountjoy and Cloverhill prisons. We must confront that truth. We must support people even if that means making tough decisions and prioritising those most at risk by diverting resources from the wealthy.

A news bulletin last night informed us that there is still €1 billion owed to the Revenue in outstanding and uncollected taxes from wealthy persons. This is the official figure and one can only imagine the unofficial amount. What would this €1 billion do for people in disadvantaged communities throughout the State? The Minister of State, Deputy Tim O'Malley is aware of some of the estates to which I refer but I do not wish to name areas in my own or other constituencies. People in such communities need our support and are looking for a break. Recent events have shown the importance of that support.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this legislation but we must remember that legislation without action will not deal with crime.

See this speech in context