Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

Pay levels for organised labour across the crafts, construction, manufacturing, financial sector and other grades are well balanced in comparison with their European counterparts or are higher than them. Those who had no jobs in the past are now working so we have moved to a position that does not tally with Deputy Joe Higgins's argument.

As the Deputy knows, the old figures relating to national income revealed that only a proportion of people were working. In addition, the unemployment rate was 18%, labour market growth was only 3% per year and emigration growth was 4%. The statistics from those days bear no relevance to today's figures. Today, labour market growth shows we have full employment and immigration is even higher than labour market growth. People are now employed in relatively good jobs with good protections, including that provided by the statutory minimum wage, which is untaxed up to a high level.

That has been achieved by the negotiating skills of the trade union leaders with whom the Deputy continually disagrees. He denigrates them at every turn, but they have achieved a position in the past 20 years that was not achieved in earlier generations. Not only have they successfully negotiated with the Government of the day, but they have achieved a position of full employment in the country where the working class and every other class is working in well-remunerated jobs with a quality of life that they did not previously have.

I am not satisfied, as I have pointed out a number of times, with the changes made by employers in the pension systems relating to defined benefits. Employers are making their arguments in that respect and the Government has engaged with all of the social partners. It has been a difficult and contentious issue. In the programme, we have spelled out the action we need to take on this issue during the next period. While it is perhaps not the biggest issue on the agenda now, pensions will be enormously important in the future.

We have said that in the short term, we would look at the funding standards and annuity markets with the social partners and pension experts. In the medium term, by committing in principle to providing protections for workers transferring between employments, we are agreeable to transposing the optional provisions in EU law, that is, the transfer of undertakings directive, which deals with pension entitlements in such situations. This was the position of the organised workers and trade union leadership of this country. The matter is by no means straightforward and we have asked the social partners and Departments to work on the issue so that we can finalise consideration by the end of next year.

In the longer term, we have committed to a Green Paper early next year setting out for all concerned the issues about State and private occupational pensions and the optional costs and other implications of choosing various options. The real complexity of this topic means that we must have an informed debate. The Government is committed under the draft agreement to respond to this debate with a comprehensive national pension policy framework. This is something our country has never done, but it is important to do it. Around the world, there has been a change in how employers deal with pension systems.

On the Bank of Ireland situation, I am aware of what the bank proposed and its agreement with its workers on that issue. It is a matter that we must examine carefully.

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