Dáil debates

Thursday, 8 June 2006

Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill 2005 [Seanad]: Second Stage.

 

2:00 pm

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

Exactly. Once he got over the boundary he was safe as there was no FBI to get him. It was great entertainment but a ridiculous way to catch criminals. In effect, that is what we have here. Once a criminal goes from one jurisdiction to another, he or she is free unless international agreements pin him or her down and make him or her face the penalties for his or her crime.

We are only scratching the surface today. When we examine this issue in its entirety, we will see a strong demand exists for a body such as the United Nations to come up with a far more sophisticated and extensive set of protocols to deal with international crime and the administration of justice internationally. It cannot be done at EU level. It must move beyond that. Before long I can see Ireland pushing this at UN level through the EU. Some steps to deal with international crime can be taken at EU level and I will deal with them shortly. These are to be welcomed although they may be rough around the edges and may need to be refined. Nevertheless, it is a step in the right direction.

We can all be victims of crime. It is grand for us in the safety of an island off the west coast of Europe to give out about what practically every other country in the world does and the various abuses that take place. However, we are isolated from some of the difficulties that happen in other countries and it behoves us to take a broader view and consider it in a world context and not a local one. International crimes which impact at local level in Ireland as in most countries include drugs, international terrorism and people trafficking.

Whether the route for drugs goes from Colombia to Amsterdam or Morocco in ships, trucks and containers, it is essential that all police agencies in the world have the authority to work together on surveillance, arrests, communications and prosecutions. Drugs come from where they are grown in Colombia or Afghanistan to the streets of Dublin and every village in Ireland. Every village and street in Ireland has a problem with drugs. If people here do not accept that, they are not in touch with what is happening with teenagers and people in their 20s. These drugs come from an international source in the first instance, through many of the crime gangs operating in Dublin and other large urban areas.

The level of drugs now coming into the country is such that the Garda Síochána inevitably must concentrate on major seizures worth €10,000, €20,000, €50,000 or even more than €1 million. Although they see small amounts being dispatched from one town to another or to a village through couriers with mobile phones, they must concentrate on where the volumes of crime are larger. I will return to the importance of intercepting telecommunications in dealing with crime internationally. Drugs are extremely widespread and it is incumbent on us to in some way try to cut off the supply of drugs into the country. Nobody can disagree with that.

I do not know how many times I have heard that much of the crime committed in Ireland is drug related. People rob, break and enter and commit burglary and larceny to obtain money and property to sell at a reduced price for cash to feed their drug habits. The drug problem is an international one which affects us all at local level, and it can only be handled, dealt with and rooted out at international level.

For anyone to remotely suggest that international terrorism can be dealt with inside country boundaries is foolhardy in the extreme. When I prepared my notes for today, I saw that within a couple of days of the bombings in London last year, one of the suspects was picked up in Rome. He had been tracked through his mobile telephone across France and Switzerland to the train to Rome. When he arrived he was arrested. That was only possible through co-operation between the police authorities across Europe and the mobile telephone companies which were able to track the signal from the telephone and see where calls were being made and to where he was moving. I fundamentally disagree with anyone who considers that a retrograde step.

I listened to people in this House complain about privacy and data protection rights. I agree with that. Nobody on this side of the House wants to infringe on normal law-abiding citizens. However, if this can help us catch international terrorists and allow us to catch within a few days people who indiscriminately place bombs in tube stations or on double-decker buses and blow people up, I am in favour of it. I am delighted to see that police are catching up at long last. It is now also possible to track the more expensive cars. Those of us who watch "Crime Scene Investigation" see how they are able to track the movement of large cars from satellite. It will be of help to see where criminals are moving.

Trafficking of people means people from poorer countries are taken to wealthy countries for illegal activity and commercial gain for those involved in the trafficking. It is disheartening, upsetting and difficult to cope with seeing dead people in containers, where they were left in a shipyard for a weekend and suffocated in the heat. These containers are the equivalent of the coffin ships which Ireland knows about from years ago, when people had to leave due to poverty to find a better life for themselves in another country. This is also why those who are trafficked leave their countries.

It does not affect us to an extent, in that wealthy countries do not have to worry about it. It involves poorer people from poorer nations seeking to get to better off countries such as Ireland and other EU countries. Some of them die or are killed in the process. It is a fallacy for anyone to suggest that international co-operation should not take place between all the various police authorities, justice administration, court and prosecution procedures and Ministers with responsibility for justice.

I listened to other contributions before I spoke and speakers complained about the protection of human rights in every part of the world. We have a duty to protect human rights in the part of the world in which we live. When we see people dying in containers we have a duty to ensure those responsible for the organised trafficking of people for profit are prosecuted the entire way back to their home countries.

A great deal of crime is controlled at international level. It is even suggested in media reports, although there is no hard evidence, that the recent occupation of a church in Dublin was masterminded through mobile telephones from Afghanistan. That may or may not be true but it is possible. It is plausible although it may not be factual. It gives an indication of what can be done and what happens in some situations. I disagree with anyone who has a difficulty with us intercepting telephone calls to deal with such situations.

A major aspect of the Bill deals with the roles of banks and financial institutions and the freezing and seizing of money in bank accounts throughout the world. I am Chairman of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service and this issue has often been discussed at meetings of that committee. In recent years dozens of statutory instruments have passed through this House to deal with the freezing of accounts, for example, the accounts of people connected to bin Laden and his various associates. We may pay no heed to some of the small print we see on the Order Paper but I have seen statutory instruments of this nature referred to the Committee of Public Accounts time and again. The international agreements in question are reached on foot of the intervention of the United Nations. Some of the requests to freeze funds of international terrorists have been initiated at UN level rather than EU level and it is important they are not just internal to the European Union.

The Central Bank and the financial regulator told me that when some of these statutory instruments were passed, the authorities notified the various banks that the accounts of all those with a particular name were to be frozen, which has led to the freezing of thousands of accounts in Ireland in recent years. It is therefore not an academic exercise. I am pleased the legislation will deal with the issue of variations in surnames, which the Seanad has considered. Variations in surnames may exist on computer databases and the banks and financial institutions cannot be expected to know about them, especially if they are foreign names with which we are not familiar. There are refinements in the Bill to deal with this.

I presume the Irish Bankers Federation was in contact with the Department and the Seanad on this matter and they have responded to the federation to tighten the provisions. Inevitably, some of the statutory instruments were a little rough around the edges and citizens who have been getting on with their lives and business here for many years were caught up in investigations merely because they had a surname equivalent to that of an associate of bin Laden or others. I hope most of these problems have been sorted and that they will not recur. I am happy the issue has been dealt with and that the legislation has been refined completely.

There are two or three principles I would like to stress in respect of this legislation. We will not co-operate in any international agreement if it compromises or prejudices our sovereignty. Our sovereignty is one reason we often have difficulty with international agreements and conventions. We have a written Constitution that guarantees our sovereignty and when ratifying EU treaties etc. we have always taken the safe option of ascertaining the view of the people in a referendum. The Oireachtas must respect the wishes of the people as they, rather than this House, are the sovereign governors of the country. We have always respected this and we will not co-operate in the ratification of any international agreement that prejudices our sovereignty.

If any of the investigations carried out under any convention pick on people because of their race, colour, religion or sexual orientation, the Irish Government will not co-operate with them. If evidence or information provided to another country by Ireland under any convention were to lead to the torture of a person, the Government would not co-operate. We have heard speech after speech on Guantanamo Bay and if torture is being carried out in such places Ireland is precluded from co-operating in any investigation that might result in it. We have heard talk on the use of Shannon Airport and scaremongering regarding rendition flights but even the media commentators who are not prone to or noted for being on the Government side have been saying all morning that the recent report, issued by a Swiss gentleman at European level, is long on hearsay and short on everything else.

On the interception of telecommunications, I referred to the interception in Rome of one of those responsible for the bombings in London. Under the international legal instruments in question, states can force telecommunications providers to provide direct assistance when it is not possible to provide it by working through another state. When a person's telephone is registered in a country in which he is not resident during an investigation, the assistance of the third country might not be of any benefit. In this case, the relevant government has the power to approach the telecommunications companies directly to provide assistance in tracking the person. There is a complaints procedure outlined clearly in the Bill relevant to those who feel this is going over the top.

Some other countries could learn from Irish legislation, such as the proceeds of crime legislation, and from our use of the Criminal Assets Bureau. It is recognised internationally that we have been one step ahead of the posse in this area and we have developed legislation in this context very extensively. Other countries are examining it.

It is good to see that there is a facility to transfer prisoners from country to country to assist with investigations. Telephone and television links can be used for the taking of evidence. Part 6 deals with identification procedures whereby members of the Garda, with the assistance of medical professionals, including doctors or dentists, can take blood or DNA samples to be used for identification purposes in other countries. A loophole existed in this regard but the legislation has closed it.

I commend the legislation to the House and hope it will be passed swiftly. We want it to contain all the safeguards suggested on the other side of the House. The Bill is the first of many to deal with international crime, which can be solved only through co-operation between countries on a worldwide basis.

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