Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

I would not describe the talks as bogged down but it is a difficult issue to resolve. It means getting a balance where both sides can be satisfied that they have enough in substance and in terms of protection to ensure there is proper regulatory and legislative compliance.

As much as anything, inspectors are there to police and investigate. Employers and, in particular, trade unions would like to see a spirit among people to implement this in an honourable way rather than try to find the means of getting around it. Its aim is to ensure that employment standards are something with serious intent, at least on behalf of all organised employers in the State. The object is not just to think of the agenda of flexibility, competitiveness and private sector issues. That is their challenge. Is that trust, spirit and goodwill there? They are trying to find a way forward.

Trade unions would strongly argue that it would be far better if this kind of case did not arise. If employers and their organisations are well organised through two or three organisations and if they follow a system of good employment standards, most of the difficulties will not arise. That is what trade unions want to see as much as anything else. The Government will obviously have to legislate and have an inspectorate and this will be far better than having this conflict of employers almost saying this is the way to go and that it is a competitive force in the economy that will drive it forward. That happens in other countries and creates many difficulties. It certainly would not be compatible with social partnership.

There are a range of measures under discussion, including those the Deputy raised. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions put forward an extensive list at the start of the year in its negotiating document, as did a number of other people. All of those issues have been up for discussion, but obviously they will not all be agreed or all form part of the agreement. The agenda is that broad one mentioned by the Deputy.

I do not know whether there is a mechanism that can be found for proofing. It has been discussed and some of the trade unions have raised the issue. It is at least a way of policing public sector contracts to check compliance.

The next round of benchmarking is at the end of 2007. Some of the issues raised in these talks, such as flexibility, will come up then in terms of the private sector. There has not been great progress on the pay side. We will, hopefully, get around to that shortly. The sides have put down their opening positions. I expect the private sector unions will argue for some kind of flexibility, although this is not something with which the employers agree. The negotiations must take place shortly if we are to have an agreement.

What is envisaged for the public sector benchmarking arrangements is more or less the same as the last time with, perhaps, some improvements based on that experience. By and large the arrangements will be based on the previous experience.

Did the Deputy ask me about some other issue?

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