John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)

I welcome the opportunity to debate this motion. On Second Stage of this Bill, Members had opportunities to raise local issues such as the numbers of gardaí and crime rates in various constituencies. During that debate, I raised the need for more time and expressed my concerns on the operation of ASBOs. The debate on this motion provides the Opposition and Government backbenchers with an opportunity to discuss the 200 or more amendments proposed. However, I did not hear any specific mention of the amendments, except for general criticisms of the Bill. Reference was made to a lack of time, despite the allocation of double time in terms of Second Stage and this motion. If the Opposition has lost time on this matter, it is its own fault for addressing the amendments to the Bill in the manner it did.

I appreciate it is a wide-ranging Bill and time will be required on Committee Stage to tease out the problems involved and I commend the Minister for bringing the Bill and the amendments before the House for debate. In his speech, the Minister proposed a number of changes. For example, he referred to the need for legislation to ensure stability and order in society and rehearsed other measures to support the Garda Síochána. I will not now join the debate on the numbers of gardaí on the streets.

I welcome the provisions in this Bill on firearms and explosives and the mandatory minimum sentences of between five and ten years for offences in this area. That is essential if the legislation is to be brought up to date and to ensure sentences reflect the serious crimes currently being committed in society. The amendment of the Explosives Act 1875 is also welcome because the number of fireworks set off at Hallowe'en and other festive occasions can lead one to believe they are legal rather than illegal.

An offence of importing drugs is provided for in amendments and is to be welcomed because of the amount of drugs that already exist in society. I am glad to see proposals on a drug offenders register, which will be administered by the Garda.

Anti-social behaviour orders are being spelled out in the context of how they will affect children between the ages of 12 and 18 and, thereafter, others. These will be implemented by senior gardaí.

I have rehearsed the elements of the Minister's proposals which I consider relevant and which will take up a considerable proportion of Garda time. I am particularly interested in the proposals for protecting accident and emergency staff and other emergency service workers.

Having listened carefully to all arguments, when one relates the legislation to what is going on in Garda stations throughout the country, I am reminded of the Minister and his statistics because the reality is quite different. A body of legislation will be passed and given to the gardaí to implement. It could be said with regard to the recent debate on the Minister and his statistics that there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I was impressed with the way the Minister reconciled himself with Deputy Bruton but that may have been a case of general election courtship, in that he was looking beyond the next general election campaign. When one looks beyond the statistics, however, our Garda stations tell a different story.

I am inclined to agree that the Minister should take more note of what is said in this House and, in particular, the comments from the party of the batch loaf. He described Fianna Fáil as a batch loaf, whereas he considers himself the meat in the sandwich. I do not know what sort of meat he would consider himself to be but maybe he should be constantly reminded that his party appeals to 4% of the electorate. He is in partnership with Fianna Fáil and, if we are the batch loaf, he should listen carefully to what we have to say because our experience is drawn from every constituency. Our public representatives are informed by a broad organisation with representation in every parish.

Rapidly growing communities have no Garda presence because their local stations have been closed. In Kilkenny, which has an expanding population, a Garda station is located on one side of the city but there is no outreach centre for the other side. In the context of the location of stations and the support that communities receive, there is a significant deficit, as well as insufficient funding and numbers of gardaí.

I do not care what statistics the Minister may care to quote because I deal with the reality on the ground and that is significantly different. In the Kilkenny parish in which I live, crime and the abuse of drugs and drink are completely out of hand. Businesses in my constituency have been robbed at knife point or by means of the threatened use of firearms. Business families have been terrorised. Elderly women have been threatened and traumatised in their own homes. Turf wars have taken place, not only over the control of low key drugs but over heroin, ecstasy and cocaine. Families have been devastated because of drug use and elderly people have had to leave their homes at weekends because of threats.

No one takes responsibility for addressing these issues. The HSE has placed families in private rented accommodation, including known drug dealers who cause havoc — one family in my constituency is being terrorised by a number of drug dealers who call to a certain house. There are insufficient local gardaí to investigate these matters and local government is not joined-up in terms of co-operation among county councils, the HSE and gardaí in addressing the issue. It is nobody's problem. One is sent to the landlord, the HSE or the Garda station, yet no action is taken. Decent and honest to God people are being terrorised in their homes. That is what we are confronted with. The city has changed considerably over the years, moving from its difficulties with unemployment to difficulties with drugs and those who peddle them. I have seen little or no response to this, bar a devastated community.

Taking into account all the legislation coming from the proposals before us, even more pressure will be heaped on the Garda Síochána. There will be a sex offenders list, a drugs users list, a list of shotguns and licences, and gardaí will have to man their stations. It is time for the reform package promised for the Garda Síochána, not merely the reserve force, to be brought forward.

I wish to see much more money spent on recruiting gardaí, and to see gardaí back on the beat. This is not to criticise currently serving gardaí, rather I make this call by way of support for them. These gardaí are stretched. In Kilkenny, for example, there are sometimes one or two gardaí in the Garda station, and these gardaí must patrol the whole county. I have received complaints from north Kilkenny, towns such as Johnstown, Urlingford and Ballyragget, with regard to anti-social behaviour and the lack of a response or a presence from the Garda. I recently attended a meeting in Inistioge where I heard that a family had to travel to the Garda station in Thomastown to have forms signed. However, the family was sent back because the forms had to be signed in the local station. The local Garda station in Inistioge is operated by a button alerting a garda, and there was no response.

We need more gardaí in Garda stations and administrative staff to support what these gardaí do. The administrative staff do not need to be fully-trained gardaí but they need to have administrative skills. Such personnel would allow gardaí to go back on the beat. We need more gardaí in every station and we must examine the technology in those stations which are closed down, in order to give some comfort to the communities they are supposed to serve. Without trying to raise the expectation in any of those communities, there is a need to look at re-opening, even on a part-time basis, Garda stations where there has been a significant increase of population in an urban location within counties. This would give the type of wide-ranging services now being demanded from the police force.

If we do not proceed with these measures now, we will create a further deficit as we move out into the next five years. Arresting the decline must begin now and the funding must be provided. We can no longer hide behind statistics. I listened to the debate between Deputy Bruton and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and most of the country would have felt that it was bogus. The reality is significantly different and needs to be dealt with.

I have never seen the level of heroin as is currently available in Kilkenny. I have seen families devastated by the use of the drug, and I have also seen a complete neglect within the Health Service Executive to deal with the issue by providing places for treatment in counties or within regions. As a result, the people who smoke or inject the drug in their homes are being supported by their families. When the occasion arises, these people vanish to locations where they can obtain and use the drug.

I cannot understand why people who have an established network within communities get away with selling the drug and pushing its use. Their names are known to community leaders, and their names are probably known within the Garda Síochána. Whether it is a weakness in the legislation or a lack of numbers within the Garda, I cannot understand why they are not arrested, brought to court and imprisoned. The devastation being caused by them is immeasurable.

I have seen young people begin using that drug and as a result entering a cycle of having to steal to feed the habit. Sometimes such youths may be given a softer drug to peddle in order to get the money to buy heroin or cocaine. That is unacceptable. The longer we keep our heads in the sand and quote statistics, the worse the problem is getting. The fact will remain that the problem was not dealt with in the course of this Government's term.

I read with interest the description a close friend, Councillor Pat Fitzpatrick, made of how he was held at gunpoint in a hotel which was being robbed in Dublin. I have watched him since as he is traumatised by the event. I compare this to an elderly person, whom I met in her home, but who cannot stay in the house as a result of anti-social behaviour. This is the kind of society we currently live in. If we are going to legislate for this society, which is what we are doing with this Bill, we must be prepared to put up the money to provide the force to police that society.

We must end anti-social behaviour and I would like to believe that ASBOs will do the trick. However, given the level of anti-social behaviour, the number of gardaí involved and what we are asking them to do, we are ignoring the real problem. The local authorities in these areas are not creating a platform where all the agencies can engage with one another in trying to solve the problem. Such a platform would involve the Garda, the HSE, local authorities, local communities, etc. It is not happening the way it should. If we want such a process, we must fund the development of numbers within the Garda Síochána.

I would like to see technology applied within the stations, with gardaí being confident of the technology they use. If this requires investment and extra squad cars on the street, it must be done. It is pointless debating this in the House and putting legislation in place if we do not put our money where our mouth is. The Minister, Deputy McDowell, must do this sooner rather than later. I am a great believer in community policing and I have seen it work in Kilkenny. I have also seen community police being put elsewhere at the drop of a hat, simply because people are under pressure.

I wish to mention the issue of missing people. I am extremely disappointed that the Minister has not met with representatives of affected families. He has delegated that responsibility to his officials. With no disrespect intended towards these officials, it is incumbent on the Minister to understand the problems of those who face crime and to understand the problems of those families who have a member missing. It is only through direct engagement with these people that one can understand the real problems.

Every Member of this House must experience at their clinics the type of situations I have described. While I respect what is being done in legislation, I would have more respect for a greater engagement by the Minister in an attempt to understand what is occurring, and not just in Dublin. The debate has recently centred on Dublin, but the problems in Dublin have spilled over to the rest of the country. The markets for drugs, guns and crime have simply widened. When did we think we would see a gun fight on the M50? The Minister must listen to what is said, look at the options for funding and demand that the type of funding required be made available in the short term so that this, at least, can be stopped. Legislation will not do it on its own,nor will debate. I urge the Minister to take action.

See this speech in context