David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)

We have debated this many times and it is complicated. It is important that people realise that if they accumulate money over a certain amount they will be liable to have a reduced non-contributory State pension. The clawback kicks in after they die. We should examine the possibility that if a person proved that he or she had no source of income other than the non-contributory payment the clawback would not apply, but if he or she had another source of income it would apply. If a person was very frugal — it would be difficult, but possible, to accumulate that sort of money — I would feel sorry for him or her because his or her lifestyle would suffer. We must examine the reason people do this. People are often afraid of getting old. They are afraid of the high costs they might have to incur in their old age if they have to go into nursing homes and so on. They are very worried about that. That is why older people very often scrimp and save all the money they can, so they will have something to fall back on if the day comes. I know the Minister is concerned about the social aspects of social welfare and this is an issue as well. Older people really worry about what will happen to them when they are on their own. Perhaps the family is not in a position to help and they do not want to be a burden, and so on. They save money and are in the position where they have cash. It is no good to them really if they die and the money is in the bank. The Department starts clawing it back and there is nothing wrong with that as it is the law. However, if a person's only source of income is the non-contributory pension, a mechanism should be found so the clawback does not arise.

An issue then is who benefits if there is no clawback. People's savings, of course, will benefit their relations. Where there is a will there is a relation, as my learned friend, Deputy Penrose, probably knows. Often there is more than one relation. They seem to appear out of the woodwork. That issue must be considered as well. It is complicated, but first we must ensure we look after our old people better and remove many of the fears they have. Then, in the cases of non-contributory pensions as the sole sources of income, the Minister might examine how the clawback might not be used.

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