Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)

I am delighted to support the motion. Sometimes I think that since Eve offered Adam the apple, society has been corrupt and no matter how hard we strive to change, we never quite get there. I read the book, American Pharaoh, about Mayor Daley and it was difficult to establish whether he was corrupt or whether he tried to work with the tools at his disposal. As society moves on and we try to emerge from the post-colonial era, perhaps we will realise that we must get our house in order.

We are familiar with the terms "war babies" and "children of the 1960s" but I dub myself a "political tribunalite" because virtually the day after the Acting Chairman, Deputy Ardagh, Deputy Carey and I became Members of the House, the tribunals were established. I am sure they will be running long after we have left. We, as politicians, have that sword of Damocles, to quote Mr. Redmond, hanging over us because it has meant that we are easy prey when we go out among members of the public and hear the refrain that we are all the same and that there is no difference between us.

When I started in politics, I did not believe corruption was as endemic as suggested. When I heard the initial rumours, I regarded them as such but obviously they were well-founded. I am somewhat weary of coming into the House and listening to Ministers give grandiose speeches. After every difficulty or disaster, we are told it will not happen again because certain plans are in train. Despite the refrain that something must never happen again, the likes of the Dr. Neary case, the planning issues in Dublin and, I am sure, throughout the country continue to happen. Each time a difficulty arises, we come into the House and bang our chests and say that it must never happen again because it is terrible. However, difficulties will arise again because, as a society, we do not have the will to address corruption. When somebody approaches us with a difficulty, we run a mile. We do not want to address it because we have this old difficulty with the informer. When one tells on someone, one feels one is doing something wrong. However, that is not the case. We must send out that message. I recall the term "tell-tale" from school. The tell-tale was frowned upon but if one brings to the notice of the authorities something that is wrong, one is benefitting society and one's actions should be extolled and not berated. We have a sneaking regard for corruption and for people who do wrong.

Following the establishment of the tribunals, we set about introducing certain measures, one of which was to change the way development plans were drawn up. We have now reached a stage where a politician is almost afraid to use his or her initiative or to do anything. Development plans are now drawn up behind closed doors by people who are not politically accountable. There was some diversity in the past when officials and politicians dealt with it. Officials are not immune to corruption and I am sure if one examined society as a whole, every sector of it is as corrupt or as clean as the next. No one has a monopoly on wisdom and that applies to the media, politics, etc.

Corruption is alive and well and will continue to be until we tackle it. I commend Deputy Rabbitte's Bill and this motion but we must provide protection for citizens. Until such time as legislation is enacted to provide immunity from prosecution for people who come forward with information that will result in the prosecution of a politician, a civil servant or someone in authority, we will continue to have corruption. Many people with information will speak out of the sides of their mouths and will make veiled references but they will never come forward with the hard evidence if they are party to the corrupt deed. They must be protected and we must make provision in that regard.

Deputy O'Connor said more people in the self-service restaurant were watching the Minister make his speech than the match between Chelsea and Barcelona. That tells me more about Chelsea than the Minister. Illegal dumping was first uncovered in County Wicklow four or five years ago but there have been few prosecutions. Cement Roadstone, a large company, was not prosecuted. We took case law from the British and I did not see any proposals to amend the law in regard to corporate liability. One man's trip abroad at the expense of a corporate body is another's perk of the job. It is, however, corruption.

We must address this matter and enhance the powers of the Criminal Assets Bureau. We must be proactive. We can continue to apply the sticking plaster in respect of the difficulties that arise but until we decide that we are serious about this matter, our actions will be completely irrelevant.

See this speech in context