Séamus Brennan (Dublin South, Fianna Fail)

I thank the Deputies for their consideration of Second Stage of this Bill. I will bring forward a small number of technical amendments on Committee Stage. I would like to deal with many of the items raised during this debate on Committee Stage because they are very detailed. Deputy Connaughton listed four or five cases involving individuals and I would like to deal with those issues in detail on Committee Stage.

I apologise to those Deputies who feel that we are dealing with this Bill too quickly. That was not my intention, but it was just the way it happened on the day. I particularly regret inconveniencing Deputies Stanton and Penrose who had to respond at one day's notice to the legislation. The process has slowed down since then, but I appreciate that it was a bit unfair to them. It was not intentional, but the Bill appeared on the Order Paper rapidly.

Deputy Stanton raised a number of issues to which I would like to respond. The NESC was asked by the Government to examine the amalgamation of the FIS and the CDA. It has produced a draft report, which is being examined. It is complicated because of its interaction with the income tax system. Issues include how to taper it, where the cut-off is made and enuring that we do not introduce another poverty trap in the middle of it all. I am anxious to obtain a solid proposal from the NESC that I can put into action. Child benefit and the CDA are still being paid this year, with the new child care payment so we are now faced with three child related payments. To add a fourth payment in this year would over-complicate the system.

The Deputy also made the point that many do not know about the family income supplement so I have decided to start a campaign next week. Simple departmental advertisements will be placed on radio, television and national media, pointing out that a person can get between €20 and €400 per week if he or she has a family on low income, depending on the means and the size of the family. I hope that campaign will attract many people. The number of people on FIS at present is approximately 17,000.

The Deputy also spoke about the need for targets when dealing with poverty. The current figure for poverty is 6.6% if one takes the consistent poverty level and 6.8% on another measure. It is 6.6% on a proposed new measure. I presume the target is zero but putting a timeframe on getting it from 6.6% to zero is another day's work. I could not offer one at present. I also take the view that the poverty and deprivation measures are getting mixed up with lifestyle indicators and social exclusion. Some of the items which we would term social exclusion and which apply to lifestyle are being mixed up in many cases with what constitutes poverty. A poor lifestyle is not poverty, it is a poor lifestyle. We must ensure we get the measurements right. I am working with the figures of 6.8% and 6.6% of the adult population. The ESRI will shortly launch a report, at my request, which seeks to find a better way of measuring poverty.

Deputy Stanton also took me to task about the whereabouts of the famous reforms I regularly mention. In short, the lone parents proposals will be published shortly. I have published the pension reforms. There is a list of activation measures, which I have outlined many times, about increasing disregards and so forth. All this is moving in the direction of reform.

Deputy Penrose asked about abolishing the means test for the carer's allowance. I have an open mind about this but, as I have told Deputy Penrose, the cost of that in a full year would be €140 million. If I have that amount of money, do I remove a means test? It is handy and clean to ask that there be no means test for carers but would it not be better to give the €140 million to carers who need it, as opposed to carers who are well off and do not need it? It is a question public representatives must deal with. We can follow the popular line of abolishing the means test and applying the allowance universally, as Deputy Higgins said. I have an open mind on the subject and will listen to further debate on it but if I have €140 million for carers, is that the best use of such resources?

My response to the issue of carers was to make the carer's allowance the largest single individual allowance at €200 per week. That demonstrates our commitment to carers. We have also increased the respite grant from €1,000 to €1,200 and increased the disregard for the means test for carer's allowance to €290 for a single person and €580 for a couple. Many Deputies, particularly Deputy Boyle, said more must be done for carers. The respite grant is not means-tested but universal. A total of 34,000 people get it at present and 24,000 people get the allowance. We will keep an open mind about the means test. I accept Deputy Boyle's point that we can never do enough for the people who care for others. It relieves pressure on the hospital and nursing home system so it is a good investment and good use of taxpayers' funds. We have put substantial funds into this area this year and last year and, hopefully, we will continue to do so.

Deputy Boyle also asked when we will start to phase out the pre-retirement allowance. I propose to do so from September. There are 11,000 on that scheme. These are people of 55 years of age. The scheme was introduced in the 1980s when unemployment was high. When people reached 55 they effectively went on to a permanent payment, for the rest of their lives, equal to unemployment assistance. Now that there is almost full employment and a strongly growing economy, the scheme is no longer relevant.

It would not be fair to interfere with the people who are already on the scheme, given that they have made their lifestyle arrangements but it is fair to stop the scheme from September. That will put about 2,000 people onto the live register because that is roughly the number that would start on the scheme from next September. In short, the 11,000 people who are on the allowance will remain on it. Natural wastage will conclude the scheme. From next September there will be no new entrants on that scheme. They will be able to go on disability, unemployment, illness or a plethora of other allowances but not this one.

Deputy Catherine Murphy asked me about child care. I accept the points she made but a child care regime has now been introduced. There is a payment of €1,000 per annum for every child under six years of age. The first payment will be made in August, the second will be paid in September and the third will, I hope, be paid in December. It depends on how the Christmas dates work out but we will try to get three payments out this year. My Department is administering the scheme on behalf of the Minister of State with responsibility for children.

I am especially pleased that we decided to include childminders in the PRSI system. I am aware that takes €253 per annum out of their €10,000 but it is the right thing to do. I have been calling for more people to be covered by pensions so it would be illogical when I get the first opportunity to include people in a pension scheme to miss it. For that reason I have included them in the PRSI system.

They will pay the €253 as a self-employed person, as it were. That will entitle them in due course, assuming they have the required number of contributions, to maternity benefit and, importantly, a contributory pension. If we did not do this, I will bet they would confront whoever is in this office in five or ten years saying: "We were minding those children for all those years but had no contributions and now we have no pension." We would regret not including them in the scheme so we are right to do it now. I acknowledge the part played by the election in Kildare North on this issue. It would be foolish not to admit that it certainly accelerated matters and got us started on the process.

Deputy Cowley has spoken to me many times about free travel. I am strongly committed to this issue and am making good progress with regard to free travel North and South. I have been in contact again in recent days with the Northern Ireland authorities and we are close to an agreement whereby our citizens can have free travel throughout the North and Northern Ireland citizens can do the same in the Republic. I believe we will conclude an agreement quite quickly. It is still complicated but we are nearly at a resolution.

The east-west dimension is much more difficult. The Deputy asked what was the difference between the two but it is a land mass and common travel area issue. In a range of legislative and administrative matters, Northern Ireland has been distinguished from rest of the United Kingdom for good historical reasons. The two are not quite the same legally although constitutionally it is the same country. I can deal with this more thoroughly on Committee Stage if the Deputy wishes. I have not given up on the east-west arrangement and it is something I would like to do. It is not a matter of money but of law. At present, the only choice facing me appears to be to include everybody over a certain age from all 25 member states of the EU but that is not practical. However, I will continue to work on the issue. I also took note of the Deputy's comments on disability benefits and the cost of disability.

Deputy Dan Wallace spoke, quite rightly, about the benefits of volunteering and the need for it to continue. I take this opportunity to thank the many voluntary organisations. My Department now accounts for one third of all Government spending and this year will spend more than €13 billion. Even that, however, is not enough. We could not make the type of inroads we are making on social exclusion if it were not for the large number of voluntary organisations such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, to mention just one although I could name hundreds. I join Deputy Wallace in thanking them and I thank all Deputies for their positive contributions. I will take careful note of what has been said and will try to respond as best I can. I look forward to Committee Stage.

See this speech in context