Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

As in China, UN reform is a big issue in India. In the question and answer session at the University of Mumbai, the students saw this as a burning issue. I did not give India support for a seat on the Security Council. I have been involved in discussions about this in the last few years. It is too easy to give support to one country, which then creates implications for another country. I explained our basic position that trying to run the organisation today on the 1945 basis is not workable. Almost all issues are dealt with outside the Security Council because it is known that if an issue is brought before the council, a decision will not be reached. It is a sad reflection on an organisation that is meant to promote global peace and deal with all these issues, that everyone tries to find other ways of doing things because they know we will never get agreement. It is happening again with the current Iranian situation and it has happened with every crisis in the last 25 years. We believe that there should be no more veto positions because that is what is causing the problem. The more vetoes in existence, the more problems are created. We also believe that small countries should not be isolated and that there should be a fair balance between the large and small countries.

There are great tensions between the larger countries. The differences between India, China, Japan and how they see this issue is extraordinary. I do not see the way forward. Unfortunately, Kofi Annan, who has put in so much effort, is coming to the end of his reign. It will continue to be an issue in the future, which is unsatisfactory. Listening to everybody's position, as I have had the pleasure of doing over the past few years, I do not see a solution. We cannot let every country on to the council, yet the countries that will not be let on keep vetoing each other's arrangements.

With regard to business, there are dangers but we should not become paranoid about them. We should try to seek some of the opportunities. India is managing to keep more of its graduates at home, is developing sizeable companies, opening new opportunities and bringing in much investment, so it will become a bigger threat. Every year, the country is producing 200,000 science graduates and 100,000 medical graduates. If these people are being kept at home, their power to innovate and to develop will be enormous. In the last ten to 15 years, 30,000 graduates have been going to Germany. India has 55,000 students currently in graduate or post-graduate studies in the US. They have people located around the world — only around 800 in this country — looking at how things happen, while students on government scholarships are going home. They have an educational programme for about 350 million people. There are tremendous difficulties, but they are creating wealth that is feeding into the rural communities and educating people. There is high attendance at education centres. People are staying longer in education and the rural communities are turning to education. Mrs. Ghandi, not having taken on the role of prime minister, is targeting her energies to convince communities that this is the road ahead. As the Deputy knows, she is a formidable woman and is highly regarded. Her theme is "education" so one can see the potential.

There is no doubt that they will take investment. On the other side, some of their companies have become so large that they have decided to start outsourcing from their bases. The difficulty for Ireland is that they do not know a great deal about us. We are seen to be a small adjunct to the British connection. That is the benefit of visiting India. One has to hard-sell the message that we have software industries and are capable of delivering. I visited three companies, one of which employs 46,000 people, another employing 51,000 people and the third, 3,000 people. For every one position in the company employing 3,000 people, some 5,000 people will have applied. The 3,000 employed are absolute experts at the high end of technology and bio-technology.

We will not be able to beat them in terms of companies employing 50,000 people. However, there are many software companies in Ireland with good products and innovative ideas that could interact with such enterprises when they are outsourcing to try to get in on the action. There is great potential there and many of the companies that travelled with us recognise that. However, if we do not get out there and interact with these companies, there will be difficulties. There are problems involved in investing there, but there are opportunities, too, as they outsource. That is what our people have to address. I have told the people in the industry that it is not possible to do this from home. If one is in business the only place one can do it is out there. We, as politicians, can facilitate contacts now and again. However, Irish industry must realise that it has to get out and about. Other countries are doing it and our people have to, also.

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