Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)

He does, and this legislation reflects that ministerial strength, but the strength of rhetoric rather than of delivery. However, I am not telling the full story regarding the Estimates for the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds because in the final item, under the heading of consultancy services, which — believe it or not — delivered €118,000 this year, an increase of €3,000, there is a new heading: "information society, electronic government, Land Registry external access service project". What is that? Is it the Registration of Deeds and Title Bill in electronic fashion? Presumably it is. That is the nearest interpretation we can put on it. However, there is no allocation of funds. There is a heading but there is no beef. Details are given at the bottom of the page, under the funding line: "A. From 2006, the ongoing costs associated with the Land Registry external access service project will be accommodated within the general administration sub-heads". In other words, whatever is above the line will cover the work this legislation will create. There is nothing new and no extra funds. As I said, there is not a single percentage increase for extra staff in the salaries, wages and allowances. There is a 68% increase for incidental expenses and for travel and subsistence. Office machinery gets a 19% increase but there is nothing for the work which will follow from this legislation.

In the amendment, section 57 of the legislation, provision is made for the Minister for Agriculture and Food to have all the powers which previously rested with the Land Commission. Right now we are dealing with the registration of property, its title and deeds. Is the Department of Agriculture and Food the appropriate Department to have that property in its ambit? If the Land Commission is now transferred in terms of its operation to the Department of Agriculture and Food, would it not be proper to have all property, in terms of the Land Registry, Registry of Deeds, which is now part and parcel of the new property registration authority, transferred to it? This has to do with land, farms, houses and property in general. Would the Department of Agriculture and Food be the appropriate Department?

It is a little difficult to see how some areas attach to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Child care is an obvious example because nobody can see where the justice element is involved, and it is not. It is just a historical anomaly that child care is attached to that Department for funding purposes, but in reality it is not the pertinent Department.

It might be more appropriate to have the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds in the first instance under the Department of "Agriculture and Land" or "Agriculture and Property" or something of that nature. The Minister might look at that issue.

In terms of what we are trying to do today, the report of the Law Reform Commission puts it quite well in its introduction:

The following principles were adopted in carrying out the project: first, updating the law so as to make it accord with changes in society; second, promoting simplification of the law and its language so as to render it more easily understood and accessible; third, promoting simplification of the conveyancing process, in particular the procedures involved, including the taking of security over land; fourth, facilitating extension of the registration of title system with a view to promoting a system of title by registration; and fifth, keeping in mind the overall aims of the e-conveyancing project and facilitating introduction of an e-conveyancing system as soon as possible.

That informed this tome as well as the consultation document that preceded it. It is a fine piece of work and full compliments must go to Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness, president of the Law Reform Commission, and all the staff who do Trojan work in the area of law reform.

The first question is why it took so long and why we have not done something about this issue already. When I was a member of Seanad five or six years ago, I recall dealing with the e-commerce legislation which was taken by the then Minister, Senator O'Rourke. The same arguments were used at the time as are being used today such as society was modernising, Ireland was lagging behind, and it was time Ireland put its commence in a mechanism with modern technology that would make it accessible in a broader scope on the domestic scene and internationally. That is even truer in terms of the conveyancing of land, registration of title and deeds, ease of access and cost.

Any of us who has bought a house, not to mention buying a farm, which is even more complicated, will be aware of the tortuous nature of acquiring title and the deeds to the house and the length of time it takes. The average time solicitors take to do this is 38 to 40 days with searches and so on. The consequent cost is often exaggerated because of the amount of searching required. Even if it is just the transfer of a title that has already been searched for, the same tortuous process must be gone through again. It is an overlapping process and it is redundant in terms of what needs to be done. We need a mechanism for certification that can be relied upon but every time there is a fresh transaction there is no need for every solicitor to search for titles with the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds. It is an issue we should have dealt with long ago.

We are speaking about e-commerce, e-government, e-conveyancing and even e-mail. Yesterday we discussed the fact that within the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, not a single garda has an e-mail address, the basic form of e-governance. Nowadays one cannot contact one's local garda through e-mail. He or she cannot give one an e-mail address or a telephone number, unless he gives his own mobile phone number, because there is no proper system of telecommunications in the Garda Síochána. We are very much behind in this kind of area and the Estimates do not indicate an urgency in ensuring, once the legislation is put in place, that registration will take place effectively.

Good title to land and property is important in terms of ownership. Ease of access to getting that title and checking it is important for conducting business and in terms of cost. It is important for a country such as Ireland, which is a busy market economy, to be able to do the transaction in an accurate and speedy manner and to avoid, as far as possible, the legal fees, the various stamp duties and searches, all of which can be expensive.

I understand the time it takes to register a property here is 38 days — at least that is what is was last year — 21 days in the United Kingdom, 14 days in Finland and only five days in the Netherlands. That is a huge discrepancy in terms of efficiency and, no doubt, in costs. Obviously, the system in the Netherlands has been streamlined in such a way that it is easy to verify title and to have it transferred and registered. We are lagging behind in technology in terms of what we are doing.

The enactments to be repealed are contained in the Schedule to the Bill. They are an interesting combination of historical and social reflection from the Registration of Deeds Act (Ireland) 1707 which is being repealed. It is amazing that we are operating under an Act which is almost 300 years old in terms of the registration of deeds. How outdated that is.

See this speech in context