Martin Brady (Dublin North East, Fianna Fail)

I would like to express my sympathy with the families in Deputy Howlin's Wexford constituency whose members died as a result of the tragic accident involving the Pisces. Can the Minister say if there any plans to introduce new regulations or legislation with regard to the destruction of such unseaworthy boats? The Minister might address that issue at the conclusion of his reply.

As many Members present will be aware, I represent the Dublin North-East constituency, which includes the port of Howth. In my lifetime, the fishing community members there, though sadly depleted in numbers, especially in recent years, were looked up to and admired as decent, hardworking and upright people. They earned their living the hard way and eked out a livelihood from the sea. They are a tough, proud and honourable people and I am proud to represent them.

There were references here to Ministers being out of touch. The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, is not out of touch. Any time I asked the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, to meet the fishermen in Howth he was always available and always on top of his brief. He was out there recently and launched a decommissioning in Howth. While I do not want to pester him with questions I make the point that when one decommissions a boat there is a crew involved that one cannot throw to the wind and forget about. Are there plans afoot to put some package together for crews on the trawlers?

I am saddened at the thrust of the provisions contained in Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill, which is directed at the people I know and respect in the fishing industry. When I read of regimes for fines of up to €200,000 for some offences, provision for the confiscation of vessels, increased powers and, as Deputy McGinley has rightly said, legal immunity for various officials and provision for the firing of live rounds of ammunition into fishing vessels, I ask what are we about. I find it hard to square that with the conditions faced by the fishing community that I know and represent.

I and everybody else appreciate that the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has a difficult job. Nobody would dispute that, we are well aware it has a difficult job to do. The Naval Service likewise has a very difficult task. It is vital that proper controls be put in place to conserve fish stocks and it is equally vital to have penalties for wrongdoers. Nobody would argue with that. I also fully appreciate that this legislation has to cater for vessels other than Irish vessels operating in the fishing waters around our coast, which account for the vast bulk of the fish caught in our waters.

That various fishing stocks around our coast are severely depleted is a fact, confirmed by fisheries scientists in Ireland and the international scientific body which advises the European Union. We must have regard to the urgent need to conserve these stocks for the future — which is commonsense — for our fishermen and for the health of our marine environment. It is vital that we all agree we are all facing the threats that diminished fish stocks bring in economic, social and environmental terms. The Department, fishermen, scientists and all in this House have a responsibility to ensure that sustainable harvesting of our fish resources is the keystone of all our concerns.

We have had some notable progressive steps in this regard in the lifetime of this Government. The re-establishment of the reduced Irish Box was achieved by a strong consensus by all concerned and concerted action by this Government and industry representatives working together.

I am conscious of the enormous difficulties faced by the fishing industry. The vast increases in fuel prices, about which I get complaints on a regular basis from the fishermen in Howth, which are a critical determinant of viability for fuel-hungry fishing vessels, have made survival in business a difficult task during the past 18 months to two years. The introduction of days at sea limits has particularly affected vessels operating from Howth where 15 vessels have been tied up for the past couple of years. The harbour master had a meeting with me a couple of weeks ago on the issue of how to dispose of these boats. That gives some indication of the way the industry is going. The days at sea limits have caused severe hardship and have been largely counterproductive. There is no other business where that type of regulation — where they can only open so many days a year or so many hours per day — would be inflicted on people.

The major increases in harbour charges in State-owned fishery harbours such as Howth have added considerably to the overheads of fishing vessels. Ever more complex regulations as regards the fishing effort, completion of days at sea books, technical measures, boat standards, recording of catches, logbook requirements, advance notice of landing requirements, closed areas and more have made life extremely difficult if not impossible for fishermen. Some of the fishermen tell me they would need an accountant with them at sea on a continuous basis.

We are advised that the rationale behind the Bill is to correct deficiencies in the existing law due to a number of Supreme Court cases. That is a reasonable objective. We are further advised that this Bill is to consolidate the various legislation which has been enacted since 1959 in respect of fisheries. Were these objectives what the thrust of the Bill contained, I would have no criticism of it whatsoever. I must confess to being deeply disturbed by many of the provisions in the Bill. I will not accept that my concerns are those of the uninformed. I have carefully considered and taken advice on many of the measures with which I have a problem. Deputy O'Donovan who spoke earlier met with a group of backbenchers and we signed the motion to which he referred. He has a good overall knowledge of the industry and I thank him for his efforts and the valuable advice we obtained from him.

I cannot accept that we cannot have a table of graded offences related to the extent of the various transgressions catered for in the Bill. I do not accept the logic that says we are only setting maximum fines of up to €200,000 per offence and leave it to the wisdom of the Judiciary not to impose this level of fine, much as I have regard for the judicial branch. It is unfair to fishermen and judges to put them in that position. I cannot accept it is beyond the ingenuity of those drafting the Bill to come up with a prescribed set of sanctions to deal with the severity of the offence involved, including administrative on-the-spot fines of an appropriate level. Repeated transgressions or very serious offences must be dealt with severely but this Bill is a bridge too far.

I am deeply worried by the extent to which the Bill grants immunity from legal action to whole sets of public servants. That does not happen in any other area of which I am aware. I fully accept that these people are decent, hardworking and honest but they can make mistakes, as we all can, and it would be unwise in the extreme not to give aggrieved citizens the right to proper redress. That is democracy and that is how democracy should work. That lorry drivers and buyers who cannot be expected to know if any particular consignment of fish is totally legal in all respects are left liable under this legislation to prosecution and fines of up to €5,000 seems crazy and daft. I am not happy at the diminution in the powers of oversight of the Minister which is contained in the Bill regarding the position of fisheries control manager and that person's reporting to the Secretary General of the Department. I cannot contemplate the inclusion of a clause in the Bill which would allow the firing of guns into fishing vessels. No legislation is in place to follow up and investigate whether such action was appropriate.

We have received very contradictory advice as to the urgency of passing this Bill. The Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, told us that it is imperative to allow Ireland to comply with EU law. However, as Deputy O'Donovan stated earlier, information from the European Commission and MEPs not just from this country suggests that this is not the case. However, we must also appreciate that there must be equity between control regimes operating in all EU countries. We must also be constructively critical and say that little in the present operation of the Common Fisheries Policy commends itself and reform of that policy is urgently needed. We need a sense of partnership and mutual respect among stakeholders, which is not evident in this Bill as presented. I strongly urge the Minister of State and the Department to promote a sense of partnership and shared interest among all parties which would obviate the need for many of the most excessive provisions of this Bill.

I note that the development of regional advisory councils in which Irish fishing organisations play a leading part is a positive first step towards a partnership approach to fisheries management if it is allowed to develop. I welcome the fact that our good friend, Lorcan Ó Cinnéide of the IFPO, is chairman of the Irish Sea working group of the RAC relevant to us on the east coast. The fishermen are very fortunate to have such fine representatives. Some members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources visited Castletownbere Harbour and various operations in that area. I would be proud to have those people represent any organisation.

As for the capacity to enforce fisheries law, I note the prosecution and fining two weeks ago of the owner of a Howth-based vessel, the Fragrant Cloud, in the Dublin Circuit Criminal Court and the detention of another vessel in that port. I also note the deep cross-party concerns over this Bill expressed by members of the Oireachtas joint committee in recent weeks and I commend that committee on its independent scrutiny of the Bill. I commend the committee's Chairman, who is very diligent. He is from Cork and also visited those ports in Cork. I thank him for his work. I am disappointed that this Bill has appeared before us unchanged from the version which was before the committee. I believe that the Department has engaged in seriously misleading scare tactics to ensure that this is so.

This Bill needs to be fundamentally reappraised in many respects and will meet further scrutiny from Members of this House, the elected legislators. I strongly urge that we take sufficient time and care to reconstruct this Bill in a considered and appropriate manner and we should be given the space to do so. I take some solace from a letter sent by the Taoiseach to the Oireachtas joint committee a few weeks ago indicating that significant amendments to the Bill would be accepted in the course of its further passage through these Houses and it is only on that basis that I very reluctantly will support its proceeding to a further stage. As Deputy O'Donovan said, this is about fair play and people's livelihoods. The least people can expect is a fair crack of the whip. We are not in the business of beating them into the ground or putting them out of business.

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