John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)

After reading the report I was as confused as ever. A number of people, even the Minister, have come around to the idea of including local authorities in policing arrangements. While I initially supported this approach, this is no longer the case. We have missed the point with regard to the role of the Garda in community policing.

I strongly disagree with the contention by a backbench Fianna Fáil Deputy that the issue was about funding for the social services, the Health Service Executive, the Department of Education and Science, juvenile liaison officers and social workers in general.

I am glad the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, is present because I have some suggestions to make on this general issue, some of which derive from my experience in recent weeks of dealing with four problem children with disastrous results. The Minister of State has made significant strides but while the overall position has improved there is a growing imbalance in this area which ties into the wider issue of community policing. I really am not sure what these organisations are doing dealing with juvenile crime in some instances. I continually come into contact with senior gardaí who say that they do not have the first clue what exactly these organisations are doing, particularly in light of the amount of funding that they receive.

As I said to Deputy Peter Power, everyone here seems to be coming around to the same viewpoint, which is that the type of community policing included in this Bill represents a panacea. I note that bolstering community policing in general is of paramount importance to everybody but I am not sure anyone really understands what that means. The catchphrases being thrown around are "better co-ordination", "more gardaí on the beat", "working between all the public services", "multi-ethnic police forces" and "proper estates management". These are fine.

Some of the legislation the House passed during the past two or three years has been commendable but some of it has merely completely confused the issue. If, for example, I table a parliamentary question asking how many people have been convicted under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 2003, I will receive a reply stating that the number is extremely low. Few gardaí are using that legislation. Few of them are telling me that it is a useful tool in the fight against crime and the cleaning up of our streets. In large part, we have got this wrong. I agree with the Fianna Fáil backbenchers and with their Fine Gael counterparts. There seems to be a legislative diarrhoea coming out of here in some instances which is not helping anyone out. I must state, in the strongest terms, that all it does is subvert the role of the Garda in some cases. It is confusing the issue at hand and is not making their role, as far as dealing with crime on our streets is concerned, any easier.

I wish to make two points in that regard. Ireland has changed greatly during the past ten to 15 years. There has been a massive influx of different ethnic groups and races into the country. It was the case, even 15 years ago, that if a young garda came into a particular division, he would probably go to the local priest to find out what was happening. One cannot do that anymore. It is somewhat more complicated, particularly in urban areas. The second major difference is that parental responsibility and regard for authority have been hugely diminished. That massive change has not been mirrored by a requisite change within the Garda Síochána. The force has not really changed to match the corresponding change in society. For policemen generally, it has changed irrevocably and we have not made the requisite changes with it. I reiterate the point that this Legislature is not helping the situation. Gardaí are still subject to the whim of the Minister for Finance and that of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. The latter is having more of a say because of the introduction of new legislation that strengthens his role in terms of consultation with the Garda Commissioner.

The point I am trying to make is that there was a time when community policing revolved around policemen. However, it no longer works like that. That is what has changed. As a result, the picture of community policing as we know it has become entirely confused. There are social workers, health board workers, council officials and housing officers. Essentially, the leadership has been taken out of community policing. Returning to the couple of situations I encountered recently, nobody wanted to take charge. Everybody knew the situation and the best actors involved were, and continue to be, gardaí.

No one among all of the agencies dealing with particular young people of the age of 13, 14 or 15 is prepared to make the call in many cases. Nobody has been assigned the leadership duty of dealing with particular individuals. It is a mess. There are five different agencies dealing with one particular problem and no one has been assigned a leadership role in dealing with many of these cases. As a result, people give up. They just do not bother any longer. It becomes too confused. They do not know where responsibility lies and I am afraid the issue is repeatedly glossed over. People, particularly in the Garda, become terribly worked up about this because they see a particular young offender and they want to do the right thing, However, I am afraid they are being prevented from doing so in many cases.

Of the many social commentators, one put it as the commensurate balance between the Garda powers and responsibilities. As I see it in my constituency, I am coming to the conclusion that we in this House have caused the confusion in many instances. We have done so with good intent in some legislation but I am afraid we have passed Bills that have sucked up much of our legislative energy as public representatives and I am not sure that the results are visible for us to see any longer. If we are moving in the direction of community policing, we need to take a step back and look at all the legislation here to see what we have or have not achieved.

I would not describe the Garda as a beleaguered force. As I stated, I think gardaí are tired of having their role in society subverted by too much legislation. I was of the opinion that it might be a good idea for the superintendent or the chief superintendent to attend meetings of the local authorities, even on a monthly basis. I am not so sure that is such a good idea any longer. Interaction is good but the only way community policing will work is if there is an agreed structure that has gardaí leading community policing efforts. That is the key element.

We have turned the entire matter on its head. There was a time not that long ago when community policing, or the majority of it, rested solely with gardaí. However, we have now included all of these agencies and different forces and gardaí are feeling somewhat sore about the entire affair. They have gone back into their shells, as if to say "We'll do our jobs and you guys do yours".

In my opinion, gardaí are looking for a purpose. They have had some bad media, some of which was justified, in the past three or four years but they are upset with regard to what is happening in their communities. They are feeling sore about the influence that Government is having on them and about their role being confused, unnecessarily in some cases, when it comes to issues such as community policing. That is the only point I want to make in that regard. If one asks a garda what he or she is looking for from us, the answer will be that he or she wants more gardaí and judges who have a clue about real life. In general, their needs are simple but we have, with good intent on occasion, confused the issue. If we are to pursue this idea of community policing, gardaí must be the ones to mould and lead whatever structure it takes within communities without undue interference — as is currently the case — from those other agencies to which I refer.

There are a couple of other issues I wish to raise. Burglary should have been included in this Bill. The recent crime figures indicate that the number of burglaries has again risen, although marginally. In my constituency, I have come to the conclusion that, because of the centralisation of Garda stations and the removal of gardaí, particularly from rural areas, people are not being properly protected. Gardaí cannot do that job for them because they have been centralised. In many instances, gardaí no longer reside in the communities they serve. Successive Governments have tried to provide incentives to gardaí, particularly young members of the force, to move into these neighbourhoods but, in general, this has not worked. Many of these neighbourhoods are devoid of a Garda presence.

If the State cannot provide adequate protection to homeowners, the law must be changed to allow them to protect themselves. If that means we must allow a homeowner use force if a burglar enters his or her property, that should be considered. In many rural areas in particular the requisite police force is not available to protect them.

I want to make some points with regard to community policing. I carried out a survey in the City of Waterford this year and completed it at the end of the summer. My sample was approximately 710 people from the city. I am from an area about 30 miles from the city so I was happy with that sample. I got the distinct impression from the comment box that people were dying to tell me their experience. The numbers of burglaries in Waterford city were astronomical and in many cases people's homes or businesses were burgled four or five times.

I will give a snapshot of the position in Waterford city after three and a half years of this Government. Some people might say the questions asked in my survey are simplistic, but I do not agree. The responses give a good idea as to how unsafe people feel in one of our largest urban areas. Some 95% of people surveyed said they believed Waterford needs extra gardaí. In response to the question of when they last saw a garda on foot in their neighbourhood, some 3% said the previous week, 14% the previous month and 59% the previous year. Some 22% said they had never seen a garda on foot in their neighbourhood. The funny thing is I did not include a box to cover the option of never; people added that themselves.

When asked how they would rate the general Garda presence in their area, 2% said very good, 11% satisfactory, 31% unsatisfactory and 54% non-existent. Some 61% of people said they had no confidence in the ability of gardaí to combat crime. With regard to whether gardaí have adequate resources to do their job, 82% said they did not. In general, people know where the blame lies, and it is not with gardaí. The people want to see more gardaí in their neighbourhoods, but they do not believe they have the resources to do their jobs. Gardaí do not believe it either.

When asked whether they were afraid to walk in their neighbourhood at night, 58% of those surveyed said they were. Some 95% indicated they fear for their children's safety when they are in town at night and 68% said they were afraid of being personally assaulted. The Minister of State will love the next question and response. When asked whether they or a member of their family had been a victim of crime over the past five years, 49% said they or a member of their family had been victims. The local gardaí were stunned by that figure.

I asked whether anyone was convicted in respect of the crimes reported to gardaí. Some 96% said there was no conviction in their case. When asked whether they had confidence in the ability of the courts to combat crime, 90% said they did not. In reply to the question as to whether our court system tackles the problem of repeat offenders, 90% do not believe it does. Some 85% of people surveyed agreed parents should be fined for offences committed by their children and 94% said the movement of young offenders should be restricted by law.

A question of particular relevance to this Bill asked whether electronic tagging should be used as a substitute for prison and some 61% said it should. On the question of whether sentencing is too harsh, too lenient or about right, 90% felt it is too lenient. The response to this survey after three and a half years of this Government gives some idea of how the people of Waterford city feel about this issue.

I asked a parliamentary question about two weeks ago regarding Garda figures for all the urban areas. I also raised this matter with Seán Aylward, Secretary General of the Department. The response showed that in Dublin, the Minister's home base, there were 300 people per garda, but in Waterford there were 500 per garda. This is a significant difference. There is a massive difference between the number of gardaí on the streets in Waterford versus the number on the streets of Cork, Dublin, Limerick and Galway.

The Department has its criteria wrong. The Minister needs to examine the formula he uses to assign members of the Garda Síochána to urban areas. I know the situation in the City of Waterford and have been told by senior officers that it will get a lot worse before it gets better. They are concerned. When I see the number of gardaí available for deployment in Waterford, I am not surprised the people in Waterford city feel the way they do. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Commissioner's office need to reassess the formula they use to assign numbers of gardaí to urban areas.

Our crime levels will continue to rise until we realise the Garda Síochána are not bit-part players in community policing. Gardaí must lead and spearhead it. They must be trusted with and given that responsibility. If a Government effort is made in that direction, the Garda will relish it. The time is right for this.

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