Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

I was trying to balance my comments. There are many morale and industrial relations issues throughout the public service. Deputy Rabbitte and I have both spent much time dealing with the service in one way or another. I know the system and how its members other than the top 1% think.

It would be difficult to implement what the Deputy suggests. Exchanges take place at present, in which people come into the system from a commercial company for a period, which is not the same as advertising the number two post in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to outsiders, for example. For those who work hard in the system and do their best at executive officer, higher executive officer, staff officer, assistant principal officer and principal officer levels, what happens to their morale when they reach 52 or 53 years of age after serving committees of the Oireachtas and the public service and undertaking evening degrees, which many do, only to have someone from outside come in? It is a significant dilemma.

To get a person comparable to someone who, by that stage, has 25 years of public service experience and a large amount of knowledge in dealing with Brussels, Luxembourg and so on, would not be cheap for the system. If this person entered at a very high level, what would happen vis-À-vis other levels and assistant secretaries in other Departments? My honest opinion is that this seems a grandiose proposal to table but I do not know how it could work. I have spent many years working with civil servants on the old relativity claims, equity claims and others and can foresee a nightmare of arguments against this move. On the other side of the argument is the cost because we do not have the expertise.

I have answered in writing a number of parliamentary questions on a certain issue. If one were to take my Department, which is relatively small, as an example, there are eight people doing postgraduate studies and a total of 33 at university level who get some assistance from the State's taxpayers this year. I welcome this activity as we should help them in their training and knowledge. This is a fair way of achieving something. It is not simply a case of advertising and bringing people in at the top levels. The Deputy has asked for my view as Taoiseach and someone who has watched the system. This proposal is easily put forward but I have difficulty believing it would work in the public service.

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