John Dennehy (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. As a trade unionist for most of my adult life and as a person who had to emigrate in the past, I may be able to make a few worthwhile comments and possibly put a slightly different perspective on some of the issues raised.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the legislation because it is important and timely for the individuals involved. If anything it is overdue. Some people will question the need for the legislation and there have already been suggestions that we have adequate worker protection and labour legislation in place. It has even been suggested to me that we are becoming a nanny state, over-regulated in different aspects of our lives. I disagree with that generalisation. Deputy Joe Higgins highlighted one relevant case and more recently the attempt by Irish Ferries to drive a coach and four not alone through worker protection but through wage agreements and redundancy laws clearly indicates the need for this type of legislation.

If Irish Ferries thinks that Irish workers are unsuitable for its operation, it may be time for the travelling Irish public to consider if that company is suitable for its purposes, namely travel. Boycotts have worked in the past. I would not use this House to suggest to anyone that a boycott be put in place but anyone who goes to the lengths to which Irish Ferries has gone, to try to break every agreement that has ever been made, should be severely dealt with.

From my involvement in many issues regarding redundancy, the rule has always been that it is the job which must be redundant. That rule is important, and sacrosanct. If it is not upheld, there is nothing to stop any employer from dispensing with the services of any employee and replacing him or her with a cheaper or younger substitute. We contest such actions vigorously because all our laws and protections in the area have been based on a certain set of beliefs, one of which involves the redundancy issue.

Greed will always be prevalent in industry and business. We regularly experience and read about cases of tax fraud, failure to pay pension contributions, to comply with health and safety regulations and so on. People who indulge in such practices will certainly exploit any opportunity they see, particularly if it involves potentially cheaper labour, be it involving non-nationals, people tied to single employer work permits and so on.

It is important therefore that we step in. As legislators it is our responsibility to ensure we have adequate laws in place and that we close any loopholes which are highlighted. No matter how carefully legislation is drafted, there will always be people to exploit sections of it. We need to be able to move speedily to cut them off. Bad examples such as seen at Irish Ferries and the Gama Construction company will give us a bad name and create great friction between the trade unions representing workers at all levels, the Government and State, and employers.

Section 22 in particular of this Bill affords protection to migrant workers. Its prohibition on deducting recruitment-related costs from the employees' wages and also retaining employees' personal documents by the employer is long overdue. It is many years since the truck Acts and other legislation prohibited this type of exploitation of workers by employers. Because of our history we should be more conscious than most of how people can be exploited. We had bonded or tithed workers and so on. Many of the current situations are close to slavery. If someone is tied to an employer, regardless of conditions that is totally unacceptable. That happened with work permits. People were afraid to complain and had no outlet. They must have a legal basis for complaints and it is timely that we move in this area.

Unfortunately, because of the current set-up, many migrants have found themselves in the Irish worker situation that obtained in the bad old days. Retention of work and other documents, the refusal to pay properly-agreed wage rates, the exploitation of workers, failure to supply details of wages earned and excessive charges for accommodation and food have been par for the course in some cases, though not in all. These abuses occurred in big companies as well as small, and it was not only individuals who were exploited.

Some colleagues in both Houses of the Oireachtas may not fully understand how easy it is for an employer to exploit workers travelling from foreign countries. They may not appreciate the difficulties such workers face when arriving in a strange country, especially if there is a language barrier. Those of us who had to leave and go to work abroad in the past will understand that difficulty and appreciate the conditions hidden in contracts which can make it very difficult to leave one company or one job, particularly on construction sites and so on. We can also see the excessive charges made for accommodation and are aware of how people can be exploited in that regard, when one finds those charges are tied into one's work contract.

Most of us will understand the resentment that can arise from the feeling that someone is coming from outside to take local jobs, and that feeling can be experienced in any country, but especially in one of high unemployment. Deputy Crawford referred to it and said many workers felt their jobs were being undermined. That sentiment may not be too obvious when everything is going well and a feeling of security exists, but when matters deteriorate, or there is a suggestion of such deterioration, people become concerned and usually take it out on the outsiders, as they see them and describe them.

In that context it is important that we give a fair and accurate account of how we are doing in terms of employment, and with regard to the forecasts for the economy. Failure to do so could affect the people covered under this legislation by creating a totally false impression of how we are doing in terms of employment. Deputy Crawford referred to this issue. I am glad he is present. The Fine Gael spokesman responsible for this portfolio leaves a lot to be desired in that regard. Deputy Crawford is forecasting a very bright future, saying we will need immigrants and must have them, while the Fine Gael spokesman may have been trying to sow the seeds of disharmony with false forecasts. That could make people unduly concerned and create a great deal of unnecessary worry, and reaction against outsiders working in this country.

Lest anyone accuse me of providing false information on the issues, I will give a couple of examples of forecasts where the Fine Gael spokesman took a sort of "Crocodile Dundee" approach to the facts. On 15 July 2003, Deputy Hogan said it was reasonable to assume that in that year we would see negative growth in the Irish economy. In fact, the economy continued to grow in 2003, with GNP up 2.8% and GDP up by 3.7%. I asked for these figures in order to have a correct record because this is an important aspect of our debate.

In talking up a jobs crisis on 4 July 2003, Deputy Hogan said:

By the end of this year, enough people will become unemployed to fill Croke Park to two and a half times its capacity. We are now heading for over 200,000 unemployed by the end of this year.

In fact, unemployment figures rose to just over 170,000 at the end of 2003. It fell in 2004 and according to the most recent statistics, that is, for the year to March 2005, the economy created a new job every seven and a half minutes.

The next quotation is a real beauty. On 4 September 2003, the Deputy stated: "Unemployment has reverted to pre-Celtic tiger levels." In fact, unemployment in September 2003 was at 4.4%, significantly less than half the 10.7% rate inherited from the rainbow Government in 1997. On 10 February 2004, the Deputy said that Youghal's narrow loss of 2,000 new jobs to Slovakia and the loss of 50 existing jobs in Offaly to Latvia and the Far East — he picked his targets well — marked a new low for the Irish economy. In fact, unemployment in the first quarter of 2004 was 4.5% and in the first quarter of 2005 it was 4.2%. More than 70,000 jobs were created in the year after Deputy Hogan made his prediction.

On 17 February 2004, he said any talk of an economic recovery is dampened by FÁS's prediction that employment will grow at half the rate predicted by the Government in the budget. This will result in "the lowest rate of job creation in 12 years". However, in the year after the Deputy made his comment, the number of persons in employment grew by 72,400 to reach 1,908,300 in the first quarter of 2005. This was the highest level of annual growth, at 3.9%, recorded since the fourth quarter of 2000. On 6 February 2004, he said "the level of notified redundancies for 2004 will reach new heights". In fact, notified redundancies fell by 16% in 2004. On 15 September that year he said the Government "does not care that jobs are being lost". In the year after he made that comment, however, the number of persons in employment grew by 93,000 to reach 1,929,200 in the second quarter of 2005. It is the highest annual growth rate, at 5%, recorded since the second quarter of 2000.

It is important to mention these comments not just for point scoring but because Irish workers, as Deputy Crawford said, feel their jobs are being undermined. They feel that way because of scaremongering. The record is available to be checked but this type of talk creates a difficulty for people who come to this country to work. It creates a sense of fear among people who are in employment and are concerned. We cannot allow it to continue. The false forecasts must be taken seriously. They also create a false picture of the economy. This country is doing exceptionally well by any measurement. The OECD and all economic groups will agree with that. Talking down the economy is also happening in other areas. These spokespeople should not be allowed to run with such false propaganda. It is not good for people in employment or for the country.

I agree with the point made by Deputies Devins and Crawford that families joining workers is an area of concern, particularly with regard to health. This country is at least as difficult, if not more so, than the USA to deal with in regard to getting people into this country, getting them a visa and allowing them to join their families. However, I believe the experience of migrant workers has been positive, with the possible exceptions mentioned earlier and some other individual cases involving housekeepers and similar workers that have been highlighted. The vast majority of cases have worked successfully and we should encourage that.

The USA found that the best way of dealing with illegal employment, as it was described, was to go after the employer, not the employee. The fact that future abuses of section 22 in this Bill could result in fines of up to €50,000 or up to five years in jail should help to ensure that such abuses are stopped.

There is no need for Irish workers to resent immigrants arriving here to work, as long as proper controls and systems are in place. That is the objective of this Bill. It is the false information and the stirring of the pot, as it were, as well as the lack of proper legislation and conditions that cause problems for people. The country is doing well but I am mindful of an old saying of my late mother's, "Do we think we will never again see a poor day?" We need to be ollamh and properly prepared to control the situation. This and the last Governments have created a positive situation. There are exceptional levels of growth. However, none of that happened by accident and false attempts to talk it down will not change that fact. It is on the record.

With regard to the use of the term "green cards" in the Bill, perhaps it is not the best name as it could be confused with the American system. I do not know what they have in common but it might be better to use a different name. There is a need for this initiative but it must be monitored. Deputy Devins dealt well with that issue. As a medical practitioner, he is aware of the situations that arise. Deputy Crawford pointed out how it could be misused for certain people. Nevertheless, we should have a range of initiatives and opportunities for people who need employment and who need to send money home to their families and into their home economies. I have been in that situation. I have experienced having to work in countries where one feels that others think one is taking their job. I can empathise with immigrants to this country.

I am also aware of the difficulties. Trade unions will protect their members but unless the trade unions seek them out and encourage them to become members immigrants will feel isolated and at a disadvantage, particularly if there is a language barrier. We should remember that many Irish people are in a legal limbo in the USA, unable to come home for family weddings or funerals. They are terrified of getting sick and having to go into the mainstream system. I hope the Kennedy and McCain legislation will regularise their situation in the near future. We should remember them if we are tempted to criticise this Bill. Many of our own, some of them relations, are in the same situation in the USA. They went there because they needed to get a job and were unable to get one here. We must be conscious of the difficulties that can be faced by others.

We should not become arrogant just because we have become wealthier. Most of us are far better off than we ever were, although some families still face difficulties. We should not become arrogant as a result. We should never look down on anybody because for a long time people looked down on us. We were seen as gombeen men and the like, particularly by our main neighbours. We should be conscious of the need to help. However, there is a need for controls and the Minister is conscious of that. Things could change and that should be catered for in the legislation. I am not part of the Deputy Hogan school of forecasting but we must be able to monitor and control the situation we create.

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