Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)

It gives me great pleasure to have an opportunity to speak on the Employment Permits Bill. I come to the debate wearing a second hat because the leader of Fine Gael asked me a couple of years ago to do whatever is humanly possible for the undocumented Irish immigrants in the United States, and to deal with the problems of Irish citizens in the United Kingdom.

It is strange that so many people forget where they came from. I do not recall my grandfather but I was often told that he was one of those who emigrated for six months every year from north Galway to the potato fields of Scotland. Those people worked in the worst conditions. Their sleeping quarters were next to the horse in the farmyard. That was their place in the social order. They were within half a mile of the boss's house and were treated no better, and maybe worse, than the farm animals. I never want to see anybody on Irish soil being treated like that for whatever reason.

Every sovereign state must have certain controls. No one can argue with that. It would be a bad Government that did not ensure the important checks and balances were in place. They exist in every country I know of, although in some they might not be strong enough.

The Minister has got a few elements of the Bill right. The idea of a quota system for people outside the European Union to match the vacancies we cannot fill internally is a good one. Few will fault the Minister on that idea, irrespective of where they come from. That is acceptable because the Minister is saying we will take in as many people from outside the EU as we need to ensure that our economy works to its maximum capability.

Some economists say that in the next few years our growth will be in the region of 4% or 5% of GDP. While I am not an economist I recall the trouble that arose when there was almost no increase in GDP. When that happened we exported workers. Far from exporting 65,000 people we are importing them. Everybody who spoke today mentioned the same figure. That is the number we need to keep our economy going. If we must do this and the economy cannot function any other way we must ensure we get the type of workers with the skills we need. If I am correct, that is what the Minister is trying to do in this Bill.

There is, however, a fundamental flaw in the Bill. I assume that on Committee Stage the Minister will explain in detail why he could not ensure that the work permit is the sole responsibility of the worker. I do not understand that because when I was on Capitol Hill this year, and on other occasions, I made a strong case for something equivalent to the Morrison visa for the 50,000 undocumented Irish in America — we do not want anything less for our people. During our debate on this matter last Thursday the Minister for Foreign Affairs said he will be in America next month and that anything less than a full recognition of our rights as Irish people in America is not suitable. I share that view. These people go out to work every day and in that way have an allegiance to the country in which they live. They could be the Minister's brothers and mine, our sons and daughters. Why would we offer something less to other people in our country? I cannot understand that decision.

The Minister must have some reason for ensuring that the permit goes to the employer. There are many immigrants in east Galway, most of them working in the hospitality sector and similar jobs. I have no doubt that the employers exploited those people under the old scheme. The situation is different now. At least the workers will receive copies of their permits. They will be in a better position under this Bill than they were last week.

The Minister, however, has stopped short of a right that every human being should have. It is necessary to place oneself in their shoes given where we come from. Why should any employer have an advantage over the workers? Would not all the other balances and checks provided for in this Bill work just as well if the permit went directly to the worker? Many people studying this Bill will wonder why the Minister did that.

From the point of view of human dignity, I cannot understand why the permit does not go to the person concerned. The Minister has invited these people into the State because we want them. They would not be here unless they were needed, met all the criteria in this Bill and were wanted by an employer. Why can they not be treated as ordinary workers? I do not understand why the Minister stopped short. I am sure the matter will arise a thousand times on Committee Stage and I hope the Minister will get a chance to address it.

There is another matter which is very important to us. Let us return to the situation in which many Irish people find themselves in America. There is no doubt that the American economy and way of life have much to recommend them. Many Irish people currently undocumented in the United States say that they could return to Ireland — a wonderful thing to hear — and get as good a job as they have in America. People ask me why I get hot under the collar about the problem of the undocumented in America, since they could come home. It is not at all simple because they emigrated voluntarily to become part of that economy. Many of them married American citizens. They like the system there, which to be honest is easy enough to do. There are many positive aspects to American living. Deputy O'Donnell and others referred to the allegiances people can have, first to their country of origin, the flag under which they were born, and then to their new country. Many of the undocumented Irish have told me that they could return home and be as well off financially but that they love America.

All of us in the Oireachtas will have to try to effect this. Let us hope that those who come to Ireland from all over the world will form the same view of this country as the Irish have of America and like being here. Let us hope that they will be treated as equals. That is why I do not understand why the Minister is trying to hand-trip them by selling them short regarding the permit. From the perspective of human dignity, it is theirs. It should be in their pocket and belong to no one else. However, the Minister is not allowing for that.

There is another matter that I feel is very important and which I hope works for the Minister. It is one thing to pilot legislation through this House. As we have seen in so many other aspects of Irish life, if one is not able to enforce legislation, one would almost be as well off without it. Greed is a terrible thing and human nature being what it is, if unscrupulous employers get the chance, they will certainly make money on anyone's back, not just immigrants. I am sure that the Minister will remember or have heard people talk of the fact that some of the hardest and meanest employers for whom Irish emigrants ever worked in Birmingham, London or Luton were themselves Irishmen who owned the companies in question. There is no reason to believe that one will not get employers in this country taking advantage of people who cannot speak the language and have almost no friends.

It must be as lonesome as anything in the world for a person from Moscow who knows no one and is unable to speak a word of English to walk down Grafton Street or, if he or she gets the chance to visit the country, to walk through the little village of Mountbellew in County Galway from where I come. Unless he or she has a few friends in tow, it must be the most lonesome place in the world. Many Irish people forget that.

I concur with much of what I have heard today. However, there is a fair degree of intolerance. People representing the city constituencies would know much more about this than I. For whatever reason, I see remarkable similarities between intolerance shown towards immigrants and that shown towards Travellers. Whomever else people wish to have living beside them, they do not want a Traveller or an immigrant. That is a serious matter.

I sincerely hope that however this develops over the years, we will ensure that we cut out the rogue employers. It goes without saying that anyone who comes here from outside the State will also have responsibilities. When in Rome, one does as the Romans, and in Ireland there are laws enacted by these Houses that we expect people to acknowledge. That is the other side of the equation.

I hope that this Bill represents a step in the right direction. Since they always went to an English-speaking country when they went abroad, the Irish did not have what I see as one of the greatest problems and disadvantages facing immigrants to this country. The proximity of the United Kingdom is one thing but one could not say that we were near the United States or Australia. Their great advantage was that the inhabitants spoke English. From an educational viewpoint, for an efficient workplace where migrants are employed, there should be great emphasis on teaching them the language. They must be given an opportunity to learn the fundamentals of English. Some people in this country would ask why we do not teach them Irish. We will not get into that. English is the lingua franca.

Many years ago as a young lad I was an educational officer with Macra na Feirme. It was just before 1970, a time when this country was getting ready for integration into the European Community. We were taken on a fact-finding trip to Brussels which we thought was miles away at the time. For young lads who had not left the country too often, it was a major experience. I remember saying to myself that it was a good job that we had someone with us who spoke a relevant foreign language or we would not have been able to get the train to go to the airport, so culturally poor were we. We were no different from most people at that time.

However, imagine those who have had no formal education, good, bad or indifferent, who have no friends and are simply floating through the world. That is essentially what some immigrants are doing. Against that, back-up services will have to be on a grand scale. Whatever can be done educationally, it is extremely important that they get the best chance.

Regarding the inspectorate, I have no idea whether the number to be employed by the Minister is enough. I am not able to adjudicate on that. However, I know that if there are employers who think that they will not be covered or that the inspectorate is so thinly spread that the chances of anyone ever calling or checking up on them are slim, they will act accordingly. There are some very fine employers in this country and I know workers from Russia, Poland and Nigeria who tell me that they are very well looked after. However, others tell me that they are given the meanest jobs and paid a pittance. They hardly know what they earn in a week. As far as I know from the few who have come to me, they have no salary or wage slip of any description. That is typical of what is taking place. However they operate, I hope the inspectors will be busy, particularly in the first two or three years after the new system is in place. If rogue employers come to understand they will be penalised swiftly, the message will go out and there will not be so many of these types of problems in future.

In comparison with colleagues in more urban constituencies, I have had a limited number of requests regarding migrant workers' rights from constituents in east Galway. In attempting to obtain information from the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I have learned to appreciate the privilege only enjoyed by 166 people in this State, namely, the ability to table a parliamentary question. Without this facility, searches for this type of information would mean spending so much time on the telephone I would hardly be able to do anything else. As it is, one often has difficulty getting through to either Department on questions of this nature. I am one of a privileged 166 out of a total population of some 4 million. I can imagine the difficulties experienced by a person in Clonakilty, Ballinasloe or Dublin with poor or no English trying to ascertain information about their rights by telephoning one of the relevant Departments. None of us would endure such difficulty for long.

The system has been diabolical in the past, with people experiencing tremendous difficulty in getting through to Departments, but there has been some improvement in this regard. That progress must be expedited. Departmental employees dealing with such inquiries should consider whether an Irish person receiving similar treatment in Poland or Russia would be content. There are some in this country who have long since forgotten our own history of migration. The frontline staff who deal with inquiries from migrant workers should bear that in mind. The progress that has been made must continue.

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